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Author Topic:   What religious rights, if any, are currently being eroded in the USA?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 166 of 228 (107219)
05-10-2004 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Cold Foreign Object
05-10-2004 5:42 PM


I did not claim that you used the word "sponsoring".
That is a word game - but that is all you have, since the rest of your post proves that I was correct.
If the Government puts up a cross it is shoeing favouritism towards Christianity. If it gives Christians speciual access to Government property to erect crosses it is favouring Christianity. That is Government sponsorship of religion. Why can't the Government just be a secular institution not involving itself in purely religious matters ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-10-2004 5:42 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-10-2004 7:58 PM PaulK has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 167 of 228 (107221)
05-10-2004 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by jar
05-10-2004 7:10 PM


The deists and theists who founded our country did not intend for atheists to twist their words against them.
All honest and intelligent people know this. It is not a matter of opinion. I have already revealed why this has happened and I am glad you evidence my claim perfectly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by jar, posted 05-10-2004 7:10 PM jar has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 168 of 228 (107224)
05-10-2004 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by PaulK
05-10-2004 7:48 PM


Have you suddenly forgot how to spell or is it that you just don't care ?
You have been thoroughly whipped in this debate. You should stick to science topics where your prowess is obvious.
I see no need to waste my time with someone who isn't even trying to hide the fact that he is debating capriciously.
I've given you way more benefits of the doubt than you deserve.
I have only debated with knowledge I learned in the 8th grade !
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 05-10-2004 06:59 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by PaulK, posted 05-10-2004 7:48 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by PaulK, posted 05-10-2004 8:25 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 169 of 228 (107238)
05-10-2004 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Cold Foreign Object
05-10-2004 7:58 PM


My spelling is fine - it is just my typing that is not too good.
Especially when I am busy laughing at the idea that you have "won".
The only example you have presented showing even the slightest erosion was - as you admit - explainable entirely on the grounds that the case involved the use of drugs.
In none of the others have you demonstrated that genuine religious rights are in any danger whatsoever. You have however put forward a number of nutty ideas that you have been unable to support.
I suppose that in not being utterly crushed you have done better in this thread than in others but that hardly constitutes winning.

This message is a reply to:
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Verzem
Inactive Member


Message 170 of 228 (107455)
05-11-2004 12:12 PM


Casting Stones
WillowTree,
It is perfectly obvious to most of us that the e and w are next to each other on the keyboard.
The next thing that is obvious is that, if you are going to bust someone's chops for errors (spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc.), you should be perfect yourself.
We have not forgotten this.
crashfrog,
What? You let Packers fans exist in Vikings land? They should be taken to the town square and stoned? I thought green and yellow were banned in Minnesota. And to think that you would actually marry one. That is disgusting! What did your parents think?
On a bit more serious note, "fullback" is one word and the fullback is generally the player who blocks for the running back on running plays, occasionally gets to carry the ball, picks up (blocks) defensive ends who get around the tackles or blitzing linebackers or defensive backs, and sometimes drops into short passing routes as a check-off receiver. A "blitzing" linebacker is one who rushes the quarterback instead of taking care of his normal responsibilities.
BTW, I have some Minnesota roots (St. Cloud area) which helps explain the first paragraph to you.
Verzem

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 171 of 228 (107993)
05-13-2004 4:40 PM


From: Page not found · GitHub Pages
In 1991, a talented Constitutional scholar writes, "the survival of the principal of free exercise exemptions is very much in doubt." That priceless promise of protection, the free exercise clause, can no longer be taken for granted, or viewed as an inevitable advance always to grace America's civil liberties landscape. If the doctrine is not defended or salvaged quickly, it will be powerless to bless generations of Americans with the freedom history shows is necessary for substantive societal health. If Supreme Court trends continue in their present direction, the essential meaning of the free exercise clause will be avalanched by the growing fear of drugs, gangs, cults, and terrorism that is steamrolling liberty's embers with a blacktop of order, restriction, and uniformity.
Michael McConnell writes in a recent Harvard Law Review article about the free exercise clause:
What once appeared to be a jurisprudence highly sympathetic to religious claims now appears virtually closed to them. Chief Justice Rehnquist and Justice Stevens have openly declared their opposition to the doctrine [of exemptions for free exercise]. Chief Justice Rehnquist has contended that when a "State has enacted a general statute, the purpose and effect of which is to advance the State's secular goals, the Free Exercise Clause does not...require the State to conform that statute to the dictates of religious conscience of any group." Justice Stevens has stated that there is "virtually no room for a 'constitutionally required exemption' on religious grounds from a valid...law that is entirely neutral in its application."
Is this the historic meaning of the "free exercise" clause? Was it meant to never grant special privilege to the person making a free exercise claim? "Special privilege" here meaning that in a clash between a law and a citizen's religious faith, the presumption of Constitutionality would be on the side of the individual and his religious belief. Either the individual would be granted an exemption, or the offending legislation would be stricken down.
Several factors must be immediately considered in the answer to this critical question. First of all, the protections of the First Amendment stand, to a certain degree, in a hierarchical order. The religion clauses are stated first, and therefore, according to some of the founders, in a place of preeminence. Before the freedoms of speech and press are mentioned in that precious Amendment the establishment and free exercise provisions stand at the gateway. For Thomas Jefferson this ranking of freedoms was not without purpose. Jefferson spoke of religious freedom in a way that distinguished it profoundly from other civil liberties. Jefferson held that the Constitution left to the states and the people the right to judge how far freedom of speech and press might be abridged, indicating that these rights are not absolute. But he left to the same authority the right only of protecting freedom of religious opinions, giving no suggestion of abridgement. The argument has also been made, by no less a personage than Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall, that Congress had greater power over the press than over the establishment of religion, because the term "abridging" was less encompassing than the term "respecting". For Jefferson this distinction between religious opinion and other opinions was fundamental. In his Notes on Virginia, Query XVII, he says that the legitimate powers of government extend only to those natural rights which were submitted to government and "the rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit." Dumas Malone, a prolific biographer of Jefferson, searched the writings of his hero in vain for even a single statement in which Jefferson defends unconditionally any freedom of opinion other than religious opinion.
McConnell marshals evidence to show that the Framers adopted the terminology "free exercise of religion" in place of what had been the more commonly used alternative "rights of conscience" to ensure protection for religiously motivated conduct and to make clear that protection would not extend to secular claims of conscience.
James Madison, the "Father of the Constitution" and a converted champion of adding the Bill of Rights after the initial ratification of the Constitution, held that religious duty "is precedent both in order of time and degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society." In his famous Memorial and Remonstrance, written as part of the advancing movement which led to the wording and the sentiments that went into the First Amendment, he wrote that "every man" who becomes a member of a civil society, "must always do it with a reservation...of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign." It is plain from these and other sources that Madison believed that free exercise of religion had a higher and prior claim on mankind than civil obligation. He believed that the first duty of a good citizen was to his "Creator." Since every man may have a differing view on the nature of that obligation, the state is bound to step away as to judging the appropriateness of each other person's "free exercise" of religious opinion.
McConnell writes:
"If the scope of religious liberty is defined by religious duty...and if the claims of civil society are subordinate to the claims of religious freedom,it would seem to follow that the dictates of religious faith must take precedence over the laws of the state, even if they are secular and generally applicable."
This conclusion seems startling, based on current usage, yet this is what the First Amendment intended when it stated that Congress could not prohibit free exercise.
This view, like those of Jefferson and Madison expressed above, was widely held among the Framers. These views presume, indeed exalt the legitimacy of exemptions for free exercise claims, contrary to the modern Court's view that there is little, if any, place for a free exercise claim being exempted from a state or federal law, generally applicable.
Three examples from the general time of the ratification of the Constitution are further evidences that the Founders' view of the "free exercise" clause was one which allowed and encouraged exemptions from generally applicable laws. The example of oaths could stand as exhibit one. It was customary at that time for oaths to be taken to help insure honest testimony. But Quakers and certain others were religiously opposed to oaths. The states could have said, "Too bad! Either take an oath or go to jail. This is a generally applicable requirement. What are you hiding that you will not swear to tell the truth?" This would be a caricature of the modern Court position. But this is not the attitude the Founders took. By 1789, virtually all the states had enacted oath exemptions. The free exercise rights of Quakers and others were granted exemption from an otherwise generally applicable law.
Secondly was the issue of military conscription. Especially back in those trying times of Revolution might it be expected that exemptions would not be granted for refusal to be drafted into military service. Yet almost all the states, the Continental Congress included, recognized the high priority of religious claims of Quakers, Moravians, and others and granted them exemptions from the otherwise generally applicable conscription laws. Here are the words granting exemptions from the Continental Congress:
As there are some people, who, from religious principles, cannot bear arms in any case, this Congress intend no violence to their consciences, but earnestly recommend it to them, to contribute liberally in this time of universal calamity, to the relief of their distressed brethren in the several colonies, and to do all other services to their oppressed Country, which they can consistently with their religious principles.
A third arena showing that the Fathers worked from the standpoint of granting exemptions for the sake of religious conscience is that of religious assessments. States with established churches required payments for the support of those churches. Characteristically these states "accommodated the objection of members of sects conscientiously opposed to compelled tithes."
The above considerations of history must be placed alongside of Justice Scalia's words in the majority opinion of the case of Dept. of Human Resources of Oregon v. Smith. Congressman Stephen J. Solarz (D-N.Y.), sponsor of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, a bill intending to reverse the effect of the Smith decision, has called the date of the Court's opinion in the Smith case, April 17, 1990, "a day that will live in constitutional infamy", a "devastating blow to religious freedom in the United States." Justice O'Connor, in a separate but concurring opinion says of Scalia's majority opinion:
"To reach this sweeping result, however, the Court must not only give a strained reading of the First Amendment but must also disregard our consistent application of free exercise doctrine to cases involving generally applicable regulations that burden religious conduct".
Though not widely recognized by the American people, their religious liberty has been largely removed. We have entered a new era of the American experiment with democracy, an era obviously not founded, as the first era seemed to be, on a commitment to protect liberty from the intrusion of government. Coupled with the new era we have entered into with a war on terrorism, the future of liberty is not bright. Which is another way of saying we could be entering an era where the citizenry, to gain a greater sense of security, gladly hand over their liberties to a powerful government, or, to use the metaphor of some-- a beast.

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by nator, posted 05-16-2004 11:03 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 172 of 228 (108611)
05-16-2004 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Cold Foreign Object
05-10-2004 5:42 PM


quote:
The writers and framers of the Constitution did not intend the Contract to be used to erase the God of the Bible out of the State.
Are you saying that the Framers believed that the US should have a state religion, and that that religion should be Christianity?
quote:
The Constitution only filters God out when His enemies contort the terms to say so. I do not need a federal judge to come along and suddenly say that the Contract really says that the God of Genesis is to be erased from federally controlled entities.
What about other gods?
Several of the Framers were most definitely NOT Christian, and several were quite anti-religion as well.
They had just broken away from a country that required it's citizens to follow a state religion, and thay thought that was an infringement upon religious freedom, which is why they specifically made the provisions in our Constitution to keep religion OUT of government and government out of religion.
It's people like you, who decide that anybody who doesn't believe like you do is a "God hater", that the Framers wanted to protect our government from.
quote:
I am for school prayer for only one reason: Because haters of God say the Constitution says it is unconstitutional.
OK.
Let's say your kid has to kneel and pray to Mecca 5 times a day while he's at school, or that he has to pray to the Goddess when he's at school.
Would you still support school prayer?
quote:
A cross on federal/State property is not an endorsement of any religion
So, crosses are not representative of Christianity?
Wow, I had no idea.
That must mean that the star of David is not representative of Judaism, and that statues of Vishnu are not representative of Hindi, and that statues of the Buddha are not representative of Buddhism.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 05-16-2004 09:54 AM

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 173 of 228 (108613)
05-16-2004 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Cold Foreign Object
05-13-2004 4:40 PM


It is plain from these and other sources that Madison believed that free exercise of religion had a higher and prior claim on mankind than civil obligation. He believed that the first duty of a good citizen was to his "Creator." Since every man may have a differing view on the nature of that obligation, the state is bound to step away as to judging the appropriateness of each other person's "free exercise" of religious opinion.
I added the bold.
Doesn't the part in bold strongly indicate that, in a society of religious freedom, the state must not endorse or promote or be involved at all in the free exercise of religious opinion by it's citizens?
Can you please explain how putting a cross or the ten commandments on public property is NOT a government endorsement of Christianity over all other religions?

Critical thinkers and skeptics don't create answers just to manage their anxiety--Karla McLaren

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-13-2004 4:40 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 174 of 228 (108851)
05-17-2004 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by nator
05-16-2004 11:03 AM


The answers to your questions are simple.
Today, forces that hate the God of the Bible are contorting the Constitution to suddenly say that christianity must be erased from all federally controlled entities.
The writers of the Contract did not intend for this to happen. They did not intend for atheists to hijack the interpretation of the Contract by their philosophical friends in the Courts. It was christian light that created the Constituition, we TOLERATE other religions and perspectives and rights, but the apparatus that we created is now suddenly being used to say that the God of the Bible is being "endorsed" which violates the First Amendment.
If a cross/ten commandment display endorses christianity then so fucking what. Our ideals and blood started this country and we will not allow the misuse of logic and law to adjudicate hatred against the God who empowered this nation to exist. This is not a matter of opinion. The framers were christians and their writings prove it. Dishonest atheists come along and insult everyones intelligence by this rhetoric of how christians/Founding Fathers really intended for atheism to be the constitutionally protected religion; the religion of no religion/anything but the God of the Bible.
We want crosses/ten comandments displays because it is our country and our Constitution. The success of the atheist agenda is CAUSED inadvertedly by God. When God is rejected with premeditation He reacts by removing God sense AND giving you over to the will of demons. These individuals whether they know it or not are all in conspiracy against God. Scientism, Law, Higher Education, and the mouthpiece of Satan himself the Media are all controlled and populated with individuals who have been stripped of God sense for rejecting God. This massive apostasy ends with the Great Tribulation soon to come. After it is over - we christians will rule the world and rectify every dishonest precept instituted by the God senseless demon controlled segments of our society previously mentioned.
Christianity is not to be federally established - no one is arguing this. We are protesting the hostility of the State toward God perpetrated by dishonest intellectuals who hate God. When the Great Trib is over we will rectify all this nonsense wholesale and there is nothing you can do about it.
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 05-17-2004 03:26 PM

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 181 by IrishRockhound, posted 05-18-2004 11:35 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 175 of 228 (108852)
05-17-2004 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Cold Foreign Object
05-17-2004 4:23 PM


So, since you can not come up with a single, even one single, example of any religious rights being eroded, you tell us your real plan.
We want crosses/ten comandments displays because it is our country and our Constitution.
And that is it in a nutshell.
There is no difference between you and the Taliban, and THAT is why we need the Constitution. It is people just like you that would like to turn this into a Theocracy, and not even a Christian Theocracy, but one based on your version of Christiantity.
edited to soften my outrage at such a post.
This message has been edited by jar, 05-17-2004 03:35 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-17-2004 4:23 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-17-2004 4:51 PM jar has replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 176 of 228 (108855)
05-17-2004 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Cold Foreign Object
05-17-2004 4:23 PM


Did you intend to sound like this?
Your post makes you sound like one of the most hate-filled bigots I've come across. I'm sure that you didn't intend to convey this impression, but much of your post is sanctimonious and hypocritical. I thought that God was supposed to reign supreme, but you've now taken God out of the picture and instead Christians will rule the world.
Willow, I know I'm not a perfect Christian, but where is there any evidence in your post of "Blessed are the meek for their's is the Kingdom of Heaven". In all my years as a Christian I have never ONCE heard it preached that Christians will rule the Earth. I thought that there would be no Earth left to rule to be quite honest.
Instead of insulting and belittling people who you think have had their "God sense" removed, should you not be prayingfor their souls? Should you not be begging God to return their "God sense"? Quite frankly, I don't believe in your "God sense" nonsense. If God is deliberately removing the "God sense" of people so that they never come back to him, then what in Heaven's name did Jesus die for??? Where's the forgiveness? Where do you fit in the parable about the Prodigal Son? Where do you fit in "The first shall be last and the last shall be first?" I thought that the whole idea behind these teachings was that God rejoices more when one stray sheep returns than when one person remains devout all their life. Again I ask, just for emphasis, where do you fit the Prodigal Son into this blueprint of yours? Who did Jesus die for?
I don't see an atheist conspiracy trying to remove God from the American or British way of life, but I do see people trying to help a multicultural society get on together in the face of increasing racism and sectarianism.
Edited the first time to add EVERY word following the very first word "your".....what did I do wrong??
Edited the second time to explain why I edited it the first time....strewth!
This message has been edited by Trixie, 05-17-2004 03:47 PM
This message has been edited by Trixie, 05-17-2004 03:48 PM

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 177 of 228 (108856)
05-17-2004 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by jar
05-17-2004 4:32 PM


Your outrage due to a cross or Ten commanment display perfectly demostrates my claim that you are stripped of God sense/controlled by demons.
The ACLU are the Taliban. Why don't they go after NYC for giving Muslims special prayer rooms at school ?
Christian prayer rooms would send them into a demonic frenzy.
Jar, you and your minority tyranny have a short span of rule. Enjoy while you can because the spiritual millenium will usher in the removal of your kind from having any power.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by jar, posted 05-17-2004 4:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Trixie, posted 05-17-2004 5:05 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 182 by MonkeyBoy, posted 05-18-2004 11:58 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied
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Trixie
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 178 of 228 (108861)
05-17-2004 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Cold Foreign Object
05-17-2004 4:51 PM


I know the message was to jar.....
.....but I couldn't help myself. Willow, jar DIDN'T express outrage at the display of a Cross or the Ten Commandments, he displayed outrage that a Christian could post such a message as you did - he obviously got the same impression from it that I did.
Now, you know that jar didn't express outrage at the displaying of a Cross or the Ten Commandments, so why say that he did? You're more like a politician, spinning spinning spinning, distorting people's words to suit your own agenda. You once suggested that I was less than honest (erroneously in my opinion, but...ho hum). Why don't you get a tissue, go to the bathroom mirror and haul that great big log out of your eye while I get the mote outta mine!
At the risk of being consigned to the flames of Hell, can I ask where Roman Catholics fit into this Great Plan for World Domination?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-17-2004 4:51 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-17-2004 6:42 PM Trixie has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 179 of 228 (108881)
05-17-2004 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Trixie
05-17-2004 5:05 PM


Trixie quote:
______________________________________________________________________
he displayed outrage that a Christian could post such a message as you
______________________________________________________________________
How dare a christian present themself anything other than milk-toast and pacifist.
In other words a christian must pass a stereotypical litmus test or certains will automatically smear them with hate slander.
If this has been done then it is the refuge of the defeated. How many of you god damn hypocrites screamed foul when a hate monger pissed in bottle/stuck a cross in it and got paid with federal monies. You all are not against hate - you are only against certain expressions of perceived hate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Trixie, posted 05-17-2004 5:05 PM Trixie has replied

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 Message 193 by coffee_addict, posted 05-18-2004 5:15 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 180 of 228 (108886)
05-17-2004 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Cold Foreign Object
05-17-2004 6:42 PM


I stand against fools.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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