Lying For Jesus Award

Falwell is lying for Jesus. Coulter is lying for conservative Republicanism. Woo Suk Hwang (he of stem cell research fraud) was lying for science. I think you'll find liars in all fields of human endeavor.Forgiveness is not an issue. Forgiveness is about ourselves and to what degree we have not hardened our hearts against those who have sinned and trespassed against us. Because forgiveness is about ourselves, it cannot be about the liars we forgive, and so it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, liars for Christ. Further, forgiveness is about forgiving the sinner, not the sin. We must always condemn sin. We must never forgive sin.Falwell evidently believes that if a lie brings someone to the Lord, then that is a good thing. Pat Robertson isn't far behind in this. Evangelists like Benny Hinn and Leroy Jenkins are over the top in this regard, not only emphasizing faith over truth and money over ethics, but actively taking advantage of people's faith in God, ignorance of science and personal anxiety about their health to further their own causes. And the faithful are often complicit in their own swindle, in many cases needing no charismatic charlatan to take them in, as witness Lourdes.Coulter is precisely like Falwell in that she believes lies in the name of the Republican cause are a good thing if they help the Republican party stay in power. As a social liberal and a fiscal conservative, a few years ago at the library I opened one of Coulter's books (I've forgotten which one) to see if it contained any good arguments for or against any political positions I hold. Before the end of the first chapter she'd already outraged me several times with outrageous (sorry to be repetitive) assertions on positions I agreed with her about! I've never read a word by her since. There's a way to make Coulter go away, folks: ignore her.Woo Suk Hwang lied for science, using fabricated data in a series of papers on his stem cell research.Now let's examine what has happened to Falwell, Coulter and Hwang.Falwell is as powerful as ever.Coulter's influence has only increased over the past few years.Hwang is out of science and may possibly never work in his chosen field again.While there are likely media and other influences at work, the significant point is that the lying scientist is ostracized, while the lying evangelist and the lying political hack are not. My own interpretation is that this is a credit to science, and is critically damning to religion and politics. It is probably why I'm not a member of any organized religion or political party, and why I believe no one else should be either, as least not of any of the large established ones.So to anyone out there who has been defending Falwell or Hinn or Robertson or any of the other liars for Christ both past and present (Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Bakker, Kent Hovind, how many pages would a full list take?): give it up. Bring credit upon yourself and your religion by forthrightly and unconditionally condemning their behavior. Pray for them that they may find the true spirit of the Lord.--Percy

Hi Buz,You're missing the point. Let me express it again differently.Falwell the fundamentalist is a slimeball.Coulter the Republican is a slimeball.Hwang the scientist is a slimeball.Of the three groups, fundamentalists, Republicans and scientists, only scientists seem capable of recognizing and calling out their own slimeballs. For another example, many scientists are pretty hard on Richard Dawkins for his militant stance against religious fundamentalism, some right to his face at the Beyond Belief 2006 conference that I'm watching now (I'm finally up to session 6).It would be nice to see fellow fundamentalists say, "Brother Falwell, you have gone too far," or to see to fellow Republicans say, "Sister Coulter, you have gone too far," but it doesn't happen.--Percy

Hi Buz,You missed the point again. My change of terminology from "liar" to "slimeball" wasn't meant to be at all significant. Slimeball is more broad and inclusive, but by using it I didn't mean to imply that Falwell is not a liar.My point concerns the reluctance of religious adherents and politicians to call out one of their own when they misbehave. Whether its a case of just not perceiving the wrong, or of perceiving the wrong but ignoring it, who knows. I'm just making the observation.--Percy

You chastise us for rendering judgement on Falwell, yet you give Falwell a free pass for his expressions of hate and intolerance, for example his connection of 9/11 with secularists, gays, etc.? Why do you wish to yield Falwell the right to sit in judgement of others and not hold him to the Biblical prescription to "judge not that ye be not judged." You're sanctioning the behavior of people who place themselves above the Bible simply because they claim to be speaking for the Lord.It isn't just Falwell. You're already on record as defending Hovind for tax evasion. Do you also defend Oral Roberts, his most extravagant misbehavior occurring when he declared that God would "call him home" if he didn't raise $8 million dollars? Do you also defend Jimmy Swaggert and his hypocrisy in preaching morality from the pulpit while trolling for prostitutes from his limo. Do you also defend Jim Bakker for defrauding his parishioners by selling over 100% shares in his Christian vacation resort? Do you also defend the shameless "faith healing for money" of Leroy Jenkins and Benny Hinn? Do you also defend the "pray for wealth" scam of Robert Tilton?I ask why fundamentalists give a free pass to misbehaving fundamentalists, and you respond with a plea for giving a free pass to fundamentalists. Buz, do you recognize the irony of offering rebuttals that are actually examples of the very behavior you're trying to rebut?--PercyEdited by Percy, : Grammar.

You somehow missed Jar's quoting right in this thread of Falwell's 9/11 remarks on the Pat Robertson show? I've alluded to it several times, you can Google it, and Jar has provided other supporting quotes as evidence. Just because you're replying to me doesn't mean that evidence provided by others in this thread doesn't exist.I appreciate that there are at least some shyster evangelists you condemn, but you're missing the point. That you defend Falwell and Hovind while faulting Swaggert and Bakker is indicative of one of the most serious problems of religion. While participating fully in the encouragement of faith and devotion, the primary denominations just leave the devoted out there alone and defenseless to be preyed upon by evangelical shysters for God. Why don't the Catholic church or the Baptist church or the World Evangelical Alliance just come right out and say, "Look, folks, these faith healers are frauds, these donation machine evangelists are frauds." Actually, I can already see why they don't, the ice isn't all that thick under their own feet.The point is that science is self-correcting and self-administrating. Falsehoods don't survive in science because the final judge is the real world. Fabricating evidence instead of ferreting it out from real world observation and experiment can never hide for long, because it will be discovered by those measuring the results against, to say it again, real world observation and experiment.In other words, both religion and politics has no policing structure. Just tune to any religious channel or watch almost any political commercial and you can see the evidence of virtually no respect for truth. That's why it's so easy for someone to be a liar for Christ, and because it is so easy that's why there are so many of them. That's why it doesn't matter if you're right about Falwell (and I obviously don't think you are) - there are so many examples of liars for Christ that the fact that some are honest (Billy Graham and Robert Schuler come to mind) is almost beside the point.--Percy

The God of this world is self-correcting and self-administered because science survives the falsehoods. Man's total global warming contribution gases the CO₂ example. Taxing the CO₂ fuel warms global ocean waters till the wicked last days of acquittal. Judging the liberal's taxing of the real world in Koyoto's chimneys is fundamental nonsense. Religion is based on science because of global warming. Liberals heat common sense and tax the sun to cause global warming. The matter of fossil fuel cools the problem of global warming. Empowered fear of cheap fossil fuel liberates the real world problems to empower fundamentalist minds. An accounting of thanks for the fundamentalist hold on scientists is rigged by the world's god of the liberal attack on fundamentalists. Intensified administration causes liberal Clintonians to believe the truth of the liberals. Salting Christians has long been in the word. Fundamentalist attacks devil the intensive bother. Overcome churches will be said, dragon months will pass, and KJV will overcome the Lord's victory for a thousand Christs of victorious enemy footstools.--Percy

Bouts of salted persuasion falls well within the salads of thought.--Percy