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Author | Topic: COVID vaccine works - we're saved! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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Kleinman writes: Who knows where Joe Biden gets his information? You would think that the President would get the best advice available since his words are transmitted everywhere. You originally said it was "your so called experts," not Joe Biden, who were "telling people that vaccination prevents a person from spreading infectious disease." I don't believe there are any true experts in this field saying this. But I can easily believe that Joe Biden would say something like this, even after being properly briefed by experts. The nuances and subtleties of epidemiology aren't easily grasped.
What is the latest advice that experts are telling physicians to give their patients when placing them on antibiotics? I've given antibiotics to thousands of patients, what should I tell them? If you truly have your patients' best interests at heart, I think you should advise them to find another physician. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Punctuation.
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Kleinman writes: Perhaps, it was my use of color highlighting that confused you. Here is the quote again with different color highlighting.
Interpretation The findings of this systematic review and meta-analysis support physical distancing of 1 m or more and provide quantitative estimates for models and contact tracing to inform policy. Optimum use of face masks, respirators, and eye protection in public and health-care settings should be informed by these findings and contextual factors. Robust randomised trials are needed to better inform the evidence for these interventions, but this systematic appraisal of currently best available evidence might inform interim guidance. Does that help you understand why you are so poorly prepared and have a false sense of security and that a generalized mask mandate may actually increase the spread of Covid? Sorry, no on both counts. Your approach to persuasion seems to be, "There! I've insulted him. That should do it." Actually explaining your interpretation might work better. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Kleinman writes: Are you claiming that Joe Biden takes advice from people that aren't experts? If by experts you mean experts from the medical fields, I assume that Biden receives advice and information from a variety of sources, including from medical field experts. But you originally said it was "your so called experts," not Joe Biden, who were "telling people that vaccination prevents a person from spreading infectious disease." I don't believe there are any true experts in this field saying this.
So, you don't know what the latest advice that experts give to patients when starting them on antibiotics. Your responses frequently ignore or indicate no comprehension of what people actually say. Since, as I just finished saying to you, this seems to be a growing area of interest by the medical community, I think the consensus among experts might currently be in a state of flux. I sense that they're tending toward tailoring advice to each specific situation rather than providing a "one size fits all" approach.
Perhaps I should send them to you? Just post your information to the thread.
Do you have any idea what the response of an infected person should be when given the correct antibiotic and the timeline of treatment? I think patients should follow the advice of their doctors. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Kleinman writes: Are you really so poorly prepared with a false sense of security that you don't understand why a generalized mask mandate may have actually increased the spread of Covid? I'm losing hope you'll ever tell us.
Do you really think that the general population understands the optimum use of face masks? The article is not targeted at the general public. I think the intended audience understands it just fine. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Kleinman writes: Where did Joe Biden get the idea that vaccination prevents the spreading of Covid? As I already said, the nuances and subtleties of epidemiology aren't easily grasped, and I can easily believe that Joe Biden would say something like this, even after being properly briefed by experts. I think you're thinking of when Biden said this at a CNN town hall on July 21, 2021:
Joe Biden: That's obviously incorrect. You later ask if these remarks were ever corrected. I could find no news item about a correction, but check out Remarks by President Biden on Fighting the COVID-19 Pandemic | The White House for him stating the case correctly. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Kleinman writes: Kleinman:Who is the target audience for the generalized use of masks? As I said, the target audience for the article is not the general public but medical professionals, who understand the terminology just fine. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Kleinman writes: Where in that speech did Joe Biden correct his erroneous claim that vaccination prevents the spreading of Covid? As I said, I could find no news item about a correction about his comments at the CNN Town Hall in July (Fact-checking Biden’s town hall on CNN). In the September speech (Remarks by President Biden on Fighting the COVID-19 Pandemic) he states the case correctly.
And who is at risk from Covid, those that are vaccinated or those that are unvaccinated? Statistically the unvaccinated are at greater risk for illness and death. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Kleinman writes: Do you think that generalized mask mandates are targeted only at medical professionals? No, I don't think that.
Anthony Fauci said the following in a 2021 interview on "Face the Nation"... Even worse was when Fauci said early on during the pandemic that masks would provide little benefit to the general population. He later admitted that wasn't true, that he only said it out of concern for their availability to the medical community, especially of N95's. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Grammar.
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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Kleinman writes: Where did he state the case correctly that vaccination does not prevent the spread of Covid? In Remarks by President Biden on Fighting the COVID-19 Pandemic he talks not about vaccines preventing spread, which was incorrect, but about the protections vaccines provide:
Joe Biden: Moving on:
Should unvaccinated people be forced to take vaccination against their will? Whose right is greater, that of people to experience a lower risk of infection out in public, or that of people who wish not to be vaccinated? I don't have an answer for you. I do believe that society is best served by individuals who have the best interests of their fellows at heart. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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Kleinman writes: Do you think that the general public understands what kind of mask to use and how to wear it? Judging by what I saw out in public during the mask-wearing phase, a significant proportion of people don't understand that gaps compromise mask effectiveness. The worst gaps occur when people wear the mask below the nose. I don't think the general public realizes how ineffective cloth masks are, or that surgical masks have a sort of running gap all around the edge. I also don't know how much the general public is aware of the debate about the relative effectiveness of surgical versus N95 masks, but laboratory measurements indicate that N95's are far better at capturing small droplets than surgical masks, and they have a much better fit with far fewer gaps.
Do you think that an ineffective, improperly worn mask will be effective in preventing the spread of Covid or any other infectious disease? It's a continuum. The better the mask and the more properly and consistently it is worn, particularly when other people are present, the more effective it will be at reducing the spread of respiratory disease.
Fauci has little or no clinical experience... According to Wikipedia, that isn't an accurate statement:
Wikipedia on Anthony Fauci: ...and has little understanding of the general population and how they respond to the medical system and the medical advice we (physicians) give to people. The "general population" is a large and diverse group, significant proportions of which seem to behave in ways counter to their own best interests. There is a multiplicity of ways that members of this group respond to the medical community and medical advice. I would imagine that most physicians despair of ever developing a good feel for how they will behave. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Typo.
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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Kleinman writes: Joe Biden didn't correct his erroneous claim that vaccines prevent the spread of infectious diseases. Why didn't he make this correction? To me it's incomprehensible that the White House didn't issue a correction (or at least none that I could find online two years after the fact), but after the CNN Town Hall there were fortunately numerous fact-checking articles noting what he said that was wrong while providing correct information. And returning to your original claim, Biden's comments were based upon his own misunderstandings, not the advice of medical experts who well understand that vaccines do not prevent infection.
You have already said that unvaccinated people are at greater risk of illness and death from disease. Correct.
If someone thinks they have the best interests of their fellows at heart, they don't do it by forcing people to do something against their will. And the flip side of this is that if someone has the best interests of their fellows at heart, they don't risk exposing them to potentially deadly diseases.
They make their case and let people decide for themselves. You want to do it by making laws based on poor preparation and a false sense of security. What I actually did was to rhetorically ask whose right was greater, saying that I don't have an answer for you. How we deal with threats to public health should always take into account the severity. If contracting the disease and dying has a rate of .001% then we probably don't adjust public health policy. If that rate were instead 1% (covid was around .3% in the US) then some adjustments to public health policy would be necessary that would depend upon the nature of the threat. And if that rate were 10% then there would need to be significant changes to public health policy, including a number of things that would intrude upon personal freedoms. People respond differently to different threat levels. When they believe there's little to no chance of severe illness or death then they'll tend to ignore public health cautions and advice. But when people they know and people they love begin to fall ill and even die such that it's impossible to deny or ignore the threat then the general tendency is to modify behavior to minimize risk. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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Kleinman writes: Do you understand that a general mask mandate for the prevention of the spread of an infectious disease requires a lot of preparation of the population, (education, training,...etc.)? And what do you do with children that are too young to understand that training? Do you think that writing a law solves the problem? Yours and the "good intentions" of others that think like you have harmed a lot of people with your shallow thinking. You don't provide examples of the kind of harm you're thinking of, but how do you balance the risk of death to a family's breadwinner against the loss of income from not working?
I'm not arguing whether a properly worn, effective mask will reduce the risk of transmission of an infectious disease. Why do you continue to argue this way? The question is whether a generalized mask mandate will reduce the spread of Covid (or for that matter any other infectious disease). Where is your evidence that any generalized mask mandate reduced the spread of Covid? The mentions of mask mandates are all coming from you. I haven't mentioned them or commented on them. Why are you demanding evidence related to your assertions from me? I do believe that the more that people wear high-quality masks in a public settings and the more properly they wear them, the more the spread of respiratory disease will be reduced.
Do you think that looking at a spreadsheet is the same as seeing and caring for patients? No, I don't think that, nor did I make any comment related to that. What I did was show that your claim that Fauci had little to no clinical experience was false.
Do you think you know enough to force people to behave in ways in their own best interests? I don't know how to make anyone do anything they don't want to do.
Try doing 150,000 documented patient encounters (encounters I got paid for) and see if you get some idea of how patients behave and respond. Please tell us about it. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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Kleinman writes: The first step in trying to do a risk/benefit analysis is to correctly formulate the probability problem correctly. You haven't formulated the problem correctly and people like you won't correct your formulation when your errors are pointed out, such as the difficulty of implementing a general mask mandate. Again, I've never mentioned a general mask mandate, and I leave the epidemiological analyses to the epidemiologists. If you have epidemiological information that would be helpful to the discussion then please provide it.
This is the way you try to address your errors in the risk/benefit analysis for the implementation of a general mask mandate. I haven't conducted any risk/benefit analysis for the implementation of a general mask mandate that I've never mentioned, other than to tell you that I've never mentioned it.
Percy:Try writing a law and then get the person arrested or fired. Are you suggesting that to deal with pandemics government should pass and enforce laws with severe penalties for non-compliance?
Do you want me to tell you the instructions I give to patients that have an infection and being treated with antibiotics? Sure, tell us, but specific to respiratory infections contagious enough to cause pandemics.
I'll give you a hint, start with the four classical signs of infection. You can give me your answer in Latin. That is where you begin addressing the problem. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Kleinman writes: Do you understand the difference between claiming masks work and imposing a mask mandate on the general population? Yes.
Are you aware that general mask mandates have been imposed in some localities? Yes.
Do they show that they have decreased the spread of Covid? And if not, why? The expectation would be that properly worn high-quality masks should reduce spread in public spaces.
Percy writes: Are you suggesting that to deal with pandemics government should pass and enforce laws with severe penalties for non-compliance? That's the strategy that you and people like you try. The only one raising this strategy here is you.
Where is the data that shows that mask mandates decrease the spread of Covid? Please see Decline in COVID-19 Hospitalization Growth Rates Associated with Statewide Mask Mandates — 10 States, March–October 2020 | MMWR for one.
So you don't want the instructions that should be given to a patient when being put on antibiotics but the instructions for reducing the spread of their infection? You referred generally to "an infection", so I requested that you focus on respiratory infections to keep discussion more relevant to the thread's topic, which is covid, a respiratory infection.
If you are going to cut and past from Wikipedia, at least cut and past the correct answer. That bit of Latin flotsam is used all over the Internet as filler. That was a joke. I put a smilie on it.
You asked about "the four classic signs of infection" but instead gave those for inflammation. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
You seem very interested in mask mandates, so I did a little more searching. Here's another study on mask mandates: State-Level Masking Mandates and COVID-19 Outcomes in the United States. From the Conclusions section:
quote: And another: Association of State-Issued Mask Mandates and Allowing On-Premises Restaurant Dining with County-Level COVID-19 Case and Death Growth Rates — United States, March 1–December 31, 2020 | MMWR. From the Summary section:
quote: And another: Overview ‹ Association between COVID-19 Outcomes and Mask Mandates, Adherence, and Attitudes — MIT Media Lab. From the opening paragraph:
quote: It makes sense that to the extent that people properly wear high quality masks in public settings that spread would be reduced. --Percy
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