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Author | Topic: Hitch is dead | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 713 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
We know that your fantasy is that you know "the real God" better than anybody else does, better than atheists, better than the people who wrote the Book. That just reinforces the conclusion that your God is entirely made up. Do you mean the flood in the book? How well do you know this character?"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 713 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
As I said, that conclusion is based on what YOU say.
And yet you and many atheists have already concluded that "My" God and the "God" described by many Christians is made up. Phat writes:
But you have nothing to back up that claim. You might just as well say that people who don't believe in the Three Bears are delusional.
I would counter charge that you and many others will be in fact living a delusion. Phat writes:
Don't be arrogant. You've said yourself that there is no smell, no taste, no evidence at all that there is coffee I am missing out on. You have even scoffed at the idea that coffee could have a smell.
Wake up and smell the coffee! Phat writes:
There have always been dangers.
Watch the news. Listen to some of the plans being discussed to track humanity.... Phat writes:
Like Jesus?
Would you really prefer a world of socialists who claim a sort of brotherly love for each other and the planet (without religion)? Phat writes:
The evidence shows that it is.
Do you actually think that is humanly possible? Phat writes:
That the socialist form is best for the common man. What does past evidence show in every previous form of government?"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 713 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
You have it backwards. There is no scientific evidence that the processes themseves However there is no scientific evidence that the processes themselves had a mindless origin.had a mind as an origin. "I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 713 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's a silly thing to say. We know there ARE chemicals. Why on earth is it silly to think they were around in "the beginning"?
No, but the idea that in the beginning was chemicals is just plain silly. Phat writes:
It makes far MORE "intrinsic" sense to think in terms of what we DO know - e.g. chemicals - than what we DON'T know - e.g. some spooky "mind". Every mind that we DO know about is made of chemicals. ... it makes far less intrinsic sense than does the premise of a mind as the origin of all. You're welcome to believe whatever bullshit you like but don't try to pretend that it "makes more sense" than reality. That won't fly here."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 713 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's all that is possible to know. Your claims of "communion" are arrogant and empty.
I DO know God better than the atheists do. All they know is what was written about God. Phat writes:
Yes you do. The authors did not claim that their writing was part of one cohesive whole. You do.
I DO NOT claim to know the book better than the authors. Phat writes:
Why not? How is it inconsistent to point out that the ONLY information we have about Him includes information that He committed atrocities?
You can't claim that God is limited to a character in the book and then turn around and charge the character with committing atrocities, claiming to prove the motive of that character. Phat writes:
The Book says that God created the heavens and the earth and it says He committed the Flood atrocity. There's no waffling about that. It's the apologists who try to waffle Him into a wholly good God despite the atrocities.
You waffle back and forth, don't you? You use something written in the book when it supports your argument, yet dismiss other things as apologetic fantasies. Phat writes:
The evidence shows that He is not.
But you don't think that God is even necessary, do you? Phat writes:
This is not about a fictional God committing fictional crimes. It's about where your beliefs come from. You don't accept the Bible accounts and you don't accept reality. Your beliefs are entirely man-made.
We have no evidence that God Himself committed any crimes. Phat writes:
You reject what Jesus told the rich man about what he must do to be saved. You reject the story about the Roman church doing it.
ringo writes:
I dont recall throwing any of it out. And then you can give us a valid rationale for throwing out most of the New Testament too. Phat writes:
I have never even suggested that you should trust what I say. I have told you repeatedly to read what it SAYS.
Why should we trust your teaching skills? Phat writes:
Then do it.
Anybody can read word for word what a book says. Phat writes:
Or a liar. Why are you afraid to discuss the apologists' lies?
It takes a good teacher to suggest a deeper meaning. Phat writes:
If "God so loved the world", why did He destroy it with the Flood? ringo writes:
John 3:16 for starters. Why would the creator of all things seen and unseen have any interest in you?"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 713 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
So were the Three Bears - but they were fictional physical beings. That's not a close connection to real physical beings. The resurrected Jesus was a physical being."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 713 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
The authors' supposed intentions are not a major factor in deciding whether an account IS fictional. We classify an account as fictional if it fails to meet the standards of reality. ... it does show that we can't say the resurrection accounts can be classified in the same way as accounts intended as fictional."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 713 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Spirits are fictional. You can make up as many kinds ad you want. ... there are basically two different kinds of spirits."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 713 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Yes I can. Without evidence, the default is that it doesn't exist. You use the same standard for Tooth Fairies, leprechauns, etc. so don't try to claim special privilege for your pet beliefs. ... you cant stand on a claim that has not been proven or disproved."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 713 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Nobody's asking you to retract your claim. I'm just pointing out that your claim is invalid. There is only One God. You are free to attempt toi question it, disprove it, laugh at it or ignore it, but you wont force me to retract my claim."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 713 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Wrong. If there's a lack of evidence for the claim, the claim is invalid by default. That isn't "me" determining validity. That's how all thinking people determine validity, including you. Remember the claims about fairies and leprechauns? Without evidence, they're considered invalid, by even you.
You dont get to determine validity except perhaps tentatively until more evidence is found. Phat writes:
Your INTERPRETATION of your experiences is dismissed as invalid - i.e. you have misinterpreted your experiences.
Unless of course the forum dismisses my personal experience as invalid. Phat writes:
Not only is it cricket, it's standard procedure.
I suppose you all could do that, though its not cricket. Phat writes:
No. Evidence ALWAYS trumps belief. Evidence is only the default in the Science side of the Forum."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 713 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
I don't know who has agreed to that. Not me. We're talking about "eyewitnesses" to events - e.g. the resurrection - that many of us don't believe ever happened. The Gospels were written by either an eye witness or by someone with direct access to the eyewitnesses. They wrote what they believed to be historically accurate, even though there was in all likelihood some metaphor or hyperbole included in that. That has been agreed upon. You've already shot yourself in the foot by pointing out that fiction wasn't even invented until centuries later. The Gospel authors could not have "intended" to write non-fiction when there was not yet a clear distinction between fiction amd non-fiction."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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