Hitch is dead

BBC on Hitchens

It appears to me that you have this all sorted out for God making Him somewhat redundant. It seems to me that you, and jar for that matter, should quit worrying about how God is going to deal with others, and just get on with what He wants of us. We are told clearly by Christ that we are not to judge and then by Paul as well. Paul in fact goes further in that his conscience isn’t clear and that he too will be judged saying that only God know what is in a man’s heart. There is no one on this board who knows the heart of Christopher Hitchens. As Christians we are to leave the judging of men’s hearts to God and all we are called to do is to pray for him.Let's look at the scriptures. IMHO I think that your response on this thread makes my point that so called Biblical literalists actually aren’t reading the Bible literally at all, but only when they find it consistent with their pre-conceived ideas.

I was expressing an opinion which is a little different than saying that you or anyone else is essentially condemned to hell. I haven't said that there won't be judgement but it isn't up to you or me to pronounce it. As I said, only God knows our hearts and so it is my opinion that we just leave it up to Him. Look at your quotes. None of them are talking about who is condemned to hell. They say that there is judgement and I trust in God to see that it well be truly just. I'm sure you know the Bible backwards and forwards but I do believe that your way of understanding it is mistaken. This isn't a judgement but it is my opinion that your way of understanding the Scriptures leads to a false understanding of the nature of God and His plans for us and His creation.However, we are both guilty of extremely bad taste in discussing this issue in this thread. If you want to discuss it further go to the thread "A Problem With the Literal Interpretation of Scripture".I disagreed fundamentally with Chris Hitchens take on Christianity but he was a gifted passionate writer who believed strongly in what he was doing. I enjoyed reading what he had to say. Whether I disagreed with him or agreed with him his writings were thoughtfully written and always left me thinking over what he had to say. I’ll miss opening my morning paper and reading his columns.RIP Christopher Hitchens

The article that follows my brief take on it is from CNN. It also has links to some interesting videos.One thing that comes out of this is that Hitchens was not just some ideologue who refused to look at all sides of an issue. I think that Christians could learn from many of his critiques of the church. I think that so often if one is to base their conclusions of what Christianity is about on the church it is no wonder that many reject it. Christopher Hitchens was very often spot on on his critiques even if IMHO he missed the fundamental truth of Christianity.I would have loved to have a chance to have lunch with him.Here is the link to this article and the accompanying video.[url=My Take: An evangelical remembers his friend Hitchens – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs[]CNN - Christopher Hitchens[/url]By Larry Alex Taunton, Special to CNN(CNN)— I first met Christopher Hitchens at the Edinburgh
International Festival. We were both there for the same event, and foremost in my mind was the sort of man I would meet.A journalist and polemicist, his reputation as a critic of religion, politics, Britain's royal family, and, well, just about everything else was unparalleled. As an evangelical, I was certain that he would hate me.When the expected knock came at my hotel room door, I braced for the fire-breather who surely stood on the other side of it. With trepidation, I opened it and he burst forth into my room. Wheeling on me, he began the conversation as if it was the continuance of some earlier encounter:The Archbishop of Canterbury has effectively endorsed the adoption of Sharia law. Can you believe that? Whatever happened to a Church of England that believed in something? He alternated between sips of his Johnnie Walker and steady tugs on a cigarette. My eyebrows shot up. ‘Believed in something?’ Why, Christopher, you sound nostalgic for a church that actually took the Bible seriously.He considered me for a moment and smiled. Indeed. Perhaps I do.There was never a formal introduction. There was no need for one. From that moment, I knew that I liked him. We immediately discovered that we had much in common. We were descendants of martial traditions; we loved literature and history; we enjoyed lively discussion with people who didn’t take opposition to a given opinion personally; and we both found small talk boring.Over the next few years, we would meet irregularly. The location was invariably expensive, a Ritz Carlton or a Ruth’s Chris Steakhouse. He disliked cheap restaurants and cheap liquor. In his view, plastic menus were indicative of bad food. I never ate so well as when I was with Hitch.More than bad food, however, he disliked unintelligent conversation. What do you think about gay marriage? He didn’t wait for a response. I don’t get it. I really don’t. It’s like wanting the worst of both worlds. He drank deeply of his whiskey. I mean, if I was gay, I would console myself by saying, ‘Well, I’m gay, but at least I don’t have to get married.’ That was classic Hitch. Witty. Provocative. Unpredictable.Calling him on his cell one day, he sounded like he was flat on his back. Breathing heavily, there was desperation in his voice.What’s wrong? I asked, anticipating some tragedy.Only minutes ago, I was diagnosed with esophageal cancer. He was almost gasping.I didn’t know what to say. No one ever does in such moments, so we resort to meaningless stock phrases like, I’m sorry. Instead, I just groaned. I will never forget his response:I had plans for the next decade of my life. I think I should cancel them.He asked me to keep the matter private until he could tell his family and make the news public. Hesitatingly, I told him that while I knew that he did not believe in such things, I would pray for him. He seemed genuinely moved by the thought.We are still on for our event in Birmingham, right? He asked. I was stunned. Sensing my surprise, he continued. I have made a commitment, he insisted. Besides, what else am I going to do? I can’t just sit around waiting to die.We are still on for our event in Birmingham, right? He asked. I was stunned. Sensing my surprise, he continued. I have made a commitment, he insisted. Besides, what else am I going to do? I can’t just sit around waiting to die.As time approached, he suggested a road trip from his D.C. apartment to my home in Birmingham, Alabama.
Flying has become a humiliating experience, don’t you think? He said. Besides, I haven’t taken a road trip in 20 years and it will give us a chance to talk and for me to finally take you up on your challenge.Arriving in Washington some five months after his diagnosis, I was shocked by his appearance. Heavy doses of chemotherapy had left him emaciated, and hairless but for his eyelashes. His clothes hung off of him as though he were a boy wearing a man’s garments. He was, nonetheless, looking forward to our journey, having packed a picnic lunch and, predictably, enough Johnnie Walker for a battalion. After breakfast with his lovely wife, Carol, and his sweet daughter, Antonia, Hitch and I headed south on an eleven-hour road trip.Have you a copy of Saint John with you? He asked with a smile. If not, you know I do actually have one. This was a reference to my challenge of two years before: a joint study of the Gospel of John. It was my assertion that he had never really read the Bible, but only cherry-picked it.Not necessary. I was smiling, too. I brought mine.
A few hours later we were wending our way through the Shenandoah Valley on a beautiful fall morning. As I drove, Hitch read aloud from the first chapter of John’s Gospel. We then discussed its meaning. No cameras, no microphones, no audience. And that always made for better conversation with Hitch. When he referenced our journey in a televised debate with David Berlinski the next day, various media representatives descended on me to ask about our argument. When I said that we didn’t really argue, they lost interest.But that was the truth. It was a civilized, rational discussion. I did my best to move through the prologue verse by verse, and Christopher asked thoughtful questions. That was it.
A bit put off by how the Berlinski event had played out, Hitch suggested we debate one another. Friend though he was, I knew that Hitch could be a savage debater. More than once I had chaired such engagements where Hitch went after his opponents remorselessly.Hence, I was more than a bit anxious. Here he was, a celebrated public intellectual, an Oxonian, and bestselling author, and that is to say nothing of that Richard Burton-like, aristocratic, English-accented baritone. That always added a few I.Q. points in the minds of people. With hesitation, I agreed.We met in Billings, Montana. Hitch had once told me that Montana was the only state he had never been in. I decided to complete his tour of the contiguous United States and arranged for the two of us to meet there. Before the debate, a local television station sent a camera crew over to interview us.When he was asked what he thought of me, a Christian, and an evangelical at that, Hitch replied: If everyone in the United States had the same qualities of loyalty and care and concern for others that Larry Taunton had, we'd be living in a much better society than we do.I was moved. Stunned, really. As we left, I told him that I really appreciated the gracious remark.I meant it and have been waiting for an opportunity to say it.
Later that night we met one another in rhetorical combat. The hall was full. Christopher, not I, was of course the real attraction. He was at the peak of his fame. His fans had traveled near and far to see him demolish another Christian. Overall, it was a hard-fought but friendly affair. Unknown to the audience were the inside jokes. When I told a little story from our road trip, he loved it.The debate over, I crossed the stage to shake Christopher’s hand. You were quite good tonight, he said with a charming smile as he accepted my proffered hand. I think they enjoyed us.You were gentle with me, I said as we turned to walk off the stage.
He shook his head. Oh, I held nothing back. He then surveyed the auditorium that still pulsed with energy. We are still having dinner? he asked. Absolutely.After a quick cigarette on the sidewalk near the backstage door, he went back inside to meet his fans and sign their books.
There was something macabre about it all. I had the unsettling feeling that these weren’t people who cared about him in the least. Instead, they seemed like a bunch of groupies who wanted to have a photo taken with a famous but dying man, so that one day they could show it to their buddies and say, I knew him before he died. It was a sad spectacle.Turning away, I entered the foyer, where 30 or so Christians greeted me excitedly. Mostly students, they were encouraged by what had happened onstage that night. Someone had spoken for them, and it had put a bounce in their step. One young man told me that he had been close to abandoning his faith, but that the debate had restored his confidence in the truth of the gospel. Another student said that she saw how she could use some of the same arguments. It is a daunting task, really, debating someone of Hitchens' intellect and experience, but if this cheery gathering of believers thought I had done well, then all of the preparation and expense had been worth it.The next day, the Fixed Point Foundation staff piled into a Suburban and headed for Yellowstone National Park. Christopher and I followed behind in a rented pick-up truck. Accompanied by Simon & Garfunkel (his choice), we drove through the park at a leisurely pace and enjoyed the grandeur of it all.The second chapter of John’s Gospel was on the agenda: The wedding at Cana where Jesus turned water into wine. That is my favorite miracle, Hitch quipped.Lunching at a roadside grill, he regaled our staff with stories. Afterwards, he was in high spirits.That’s quite a - how shall I put it? A clan? - team that you’ve got there, he said, watching the teenage members of our group clamber into the big Chevrolet.
Yes, it is, I said, starting the truck. They enjoyed your stories.
I enjoy them. He reclined his seat and we were off again. Shall we do all of the national parks?Yes, and maybe the whole Bible, too, I suggested playfully. He gave a laugh.
Oh, and Larry, I’ve looked at your book. He added.
And?
Well, all that you say about our conversation is true, but you have one detail wrong.
And what is that? I feared a total rewrite was coming.
You have me drinking Johnnie Walker Red Label. That’s the cheap stuff. I only drink Black Label.The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Larry Alex Taunton.Edited by GDR, : typo

You'll have to do better than that. Just read the following quote from Hitch in post 75.

A moving testimony by his brother. Pater Hitchens

I should stay out of this but let me add my 2 cents. I agree with Faith that it is all about faith but as a Christian I would say that Faith has misconstrued what it is that we are to have faith in.Faith is IMHO all wrapped in who is in and who is out so to speak, and that is determined by whether or not one believes in the correct doctrine. The basic message of the Gospels is that we are called to a vocation.The point is to have faith in and live out the message that was Jesus' call on our lives. Yes, the Gospels do say that we can have relationship with Jesus/God, but that vocation is for all of mankind, and not just Christians. We are called to live a life based on humble kindness and mercy while loving our neighbours as ourselves.I would agree that in ways that can't begin to comprehend, that our lives now will impact what happens with us when this world is renewed, but I'm more than happy to let God worry about that.I listened to a number of debates involving Hitchens and in some cases I thought he sounded more Christ like than the Christians he was debating.

Unless the economists is including Islamic theocracys, I would doubt that very much. Within the Christian church I would think that the only great wealth is in real estate which the various churches have had for decades or centuries.

First off, how about a link to your economist rather than just your assertion.
Does he include Islamic theocracys?
I mention the real estate simply because much of the real estate value is involved in building that are decades and centuries old and are now historic sites and their value is more intrinsic as opposed to having an actual monetary value.

Here is the definition of a Christian from that wiki site Firstly they have a very loose definition of w;hat constitutes a Christian. I have numerous friends who call themselves Christian because they grew up in a Christian culture, but never read the Bible and never attend church. However, they are Christian because they have the general idea of the Golden Rule and that it's a good thing.The other thing is, is that it is obvious that Christians are much better at earning money, and clearly more intelligent that the non-believers who don't even make the chart.

Not really. We both live in secular countries but yet the western world is still considered culturally Christian. I just question what it is they are basing their statistics on.

Religious people donate moreFrom the report;

quote:

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But religious people also contribute to other types of charity at similar or higher rates than their secular counterparts.

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The report says there is a staggering difference between the charitable giving practices of the religiously affiliated and those with no religious affiliation. While 62 percent of religious households give to charity, only 46 percent of nonreligious households do.

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Religious institutions are man made institutions and everything man made is fallible. However having said that I would hope that the money that flows from wealth is used wisely. If you have wealth and give it all to the poor it is a one time gift. If however you use that wealth to create income and give that to the poor you have a gift that keeps on giving. It is how religious institutions use their wealth that matters, just as it is for individuals.

I agree completely with all of that. You’re probably right. I should have done more research before posting. I will say though that all reports have some bias or another. Most of the people working in churches are just, unionized or not, busy people just trying to get by, but they still seem to find time and money to be involved. This is a stereotypical view of Christianity. As I have lived in several places with in Canada I have been a member of several churches all Anglican, but I have also been involved with other churches but not as a member.Frankly, I agree that people in churches are more inclined to give to charities that have Christian leadership, not necessarily because they want to proselytize, but because, rightly or wrongly, they have more confidence in the integrity of the recipients.Firstly, I don’t see members donating in order to get brownie points with either God or the church, and In addition if they are then we are back to your first point which I agreed with. However, it is hard enough to judge my own motivations let alone the motivations of others.It isn’t about what we do that Jesus calls us except indirectly. It is what we do as a result of having hearts that love sacrificially. Like you pointed out, it is one thing to give in order to gain approval from God, church or anyone else, as opposed to give in order to simply improve the lives of others.

wealthy organization - starting of with charitable organizations Other than the Cathoilic church whose wealth nobody knows, but it is a lot, and the Mormon church the rest of the Christian churches seem to be about the same as Imam Khomeini's Order or the Bill Gates foundation which is funded by essentially 2 people. I doubt that the Catholic church has any idea of its worth as it is scattered all over the world. It appears by wiki that it isn't worth that much and presumably a lot of it isn't liquid anyway.Presumably you are pulling a Faith and cherry picking the verse which talks about the rich young guy giving all he has and following Jesus. The context of the whole NT is about what you do with whatever you have to give.