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Author | Topic: Does God Really Exist??? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
Does it matter?
"Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river." -Anya
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: Which brings us squarely back to "so who cares?" For all intents and purposes, there is no God. Might there be an irrelevant one? Sure. So?
quote: I could have sworn Alexander Fleming invented penicillin. "Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river." -Anya
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: But which God would that be? YHWH? Christ? Allah? Odin? Osiris? That little cloned kid the Raelians worship? David Icke's snake demons? So many ways to get damned, so little time... better hope the Vikings weren't right, or you're never gonna reach Valhalla. They all threaten damnation (maybe not the Raelians... I don't know too much about them) and they're all mutually exclusive. Simply playing the odds, there's no safe bet. So who cares?
quote: Apart from his parents, no one we can see. "Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river." -Anya
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
I'm not straying off topic. You said that if God exists, then I have eternal torment coming my way. I asked you which eternal torment that would be. There are so many to choose from, after all.
"Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river." -Anya
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: No... you didn't. You said that I should care because I will be tormented if I'm wrong. So I outlined for you the many ways in which we can all be wrong, including you. We've both got an equal chance at the pit here, guy. So if your belief gains you no assurances, why should I care? In short... who cares? "Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river." -Anya
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: Thanks! As for God caring... he might well care, if he does in fact exist. But as I've said before... telling me that God cares is a little like telling me that in a parallel universe, I'm in a polygamous marriage with Eliza Dushku, Angelina Jolie, and the girl who plays Chloe on Smallville. Good to know. Kinda nice, even. But it doesn't really impact on my life, now does it? "Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river." -Anya
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: And I think this is where you're not getting it, CM. We have yet to see this scientific evidence in support of there being a God. Please present it if it's there. From where I'm standing though, there's no evidence one way or the other. So as far as what's in front of me, I see no God. Sure, there could be one. I guess. And sure, despite there being no evidence one way or the other, there could also be a giant robot juggling planets somewhere on the other side of the galaxy. I guess. And... so? The possibility of there being a God is about as likely to me as there being a giant planet-juggling robot somewhere out near Trafalmadore... and has about as much relevance to my life.
quote: Thanks to you too! "Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river." -Anya
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: Between this, and the "Darwinist Ideology" thread, I wonder if I should bother posting. Nobody reads them, anyway. For the last time... you are right. We can not know for certain whether or not there is a God. We also can not know for certain whether or not there is a 20,000 year-old telepathic robot living under the surface of the moon. We also can not know for certain whether or not the ghosts of dead baboons haunt our urinary tracts. So who. freakin. cares. As far as what is in front of us, we see no God. "Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river." -Anya
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
Dan writes: I wonder if I should bother posting. Nobody reads them, anyway. Chris writes: But what if GOD really exist? [This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 02-18-2004] "Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river." -Anya
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: I have. Turns out later it was my Dad, dressed up. Go figure. That's why we discount hearsay. It's unreliable.
quote: If I were Mr. Hambre, "You are personally invading MY urinary tract!!" would be my new sig quote. But we all know I'm classier than Hambre.
quote: But we have observed life. There it is, right there. *points* We don't have to observe the origin to know it's there. And given that we can't see any cause, all we can know is that it's there. How did it start? More research, more time, maybe we'll find out. Until then, though, there's no reason to go assuming we know how it happened. There seems to be a tendency among people to use "God" as a synonym for "I don't know." Why? We don't know how life began, therefore it must have been God?
quote: Why not? It's perfectly reasonable to guess that the conditions existing on the Earth when life arose were all that was needed for life to begin. Sort of like when you drop salt in water, it dissolves, simply because of the chemical properties of both substances. There isn't a dissolver telling it to happen. "Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river." -Anya
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: Exactly. I thought I saw Santa Clause, and reported to others that I had done so, but was mistaken. But by all accounts... fat man... dressed in red... white beard... presents under the tree... Certainly seemed reasonable to assume it at the time.
quote: Yeah, I know. Last I heard, he didn't leave presents so much as eviscerate children. But that might be urban legend.
quote: But not by any conscious force. Just by chemical reaction.
quote: Why would I have to? We know the Earth was there. We know life is here now. We don't see any outside variables. Just Occam's Razor, really. I'm assuming that what we see is what was involved. I'm open to the concept of variables, but I'm not going to assume they were there without some evidence. And I also don't see the point in filling in my "I don't know" with "God must have done it." Jeez, I can't even get anyone to tell me what God is, let alone what his specific involvement with the origin of life was.
quote: Dunno. But the best guess is that the conditions existing in the universe gave rise to it... like salt dissolving in water. Let me ask you one... if nothing can come from nothing, then where did God come from? Suggesting that everything in the universe must have come from something just moves the goalposts. You have to ask "where did that something come from?" This goes on to infinity, and eventually, something had to come from nothing. So why wouldn't that something that came from nothing be the only thing we know for certain is here... this universe? "Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river." -Anya
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: Heading this one off at the pass right now: http://EvC Forum: Always talking about micro-evolution? "Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river." -Anya
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: In which case, I can just as easily say "the natural laws which allowed the universe to happen are outisde of time. (Time having been established by you as a dimension of our universe.)" So, back to the simplest explanation... the universe came about because of the natural laws of whatever is outside it, like salt dissolving in water. (To rehash a metaphor.) As always, I'm open to the idea of an outside variable having a hand in the origin of our universe. But if you'd like to include one, please tell me: 1) What that variable is. (Not what it is named.) 2) Specifically, what effect that variable had on the origin of the universe. Otherwise, all you're doing is using a synonym for "I don't know." Don't get me wrong... I'm comfortable with "I don't know" as an answer. I don't know either, so who am I to judge? What I glance cockeyed at is "Oh, I know, all right. It's called [synonym for I don't know]." [This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 02-19-2004] "Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river." -Anya
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: You stated that God is something that exists outside time. This establishes a state of being outside our universe. Now, I did not mean to imply that the natural laws of our universe exist outside our universe... only that whatever there was before our universe came into being would have natural laws of its own, and that those natural laws could conceivably allow for the formation of our universe.
quote: No. What I want you to do is address my earlier point:
Dan writes: I'm open to the idea of an outside variable having a hand in the origin of our universe. But if you'd like to include one, please tell me: 1) What that variable is. (Not what it is named.) 2) Specifically, what effect that variable had on the origin of the universe. As always, I am assuming only that what we see is here. You are the one trying to establish an outside influence.
quote: Assumptions: 1) God exists2) God can talk with his creation. 3) God did talk with his creation. 4) Man is sinful. 5) God is holy. 6) God's holiness prevents him from associating with sinful beings. 7) God delivered his message in another manner. So there's seven prerequisites to even begin to wind our way through this one. And I have no idea how any of these assumptions support your final point:
quote: Which is patently untrue. I don't have faith in God one way or the other. I'm just looking at what I see. If you want to tell me there's more than what I see, go nuts. But don't expect me to go investing a whole lot of stock in it without something to back it up. As always, my only assumption, the only thing in which I have faith, (as far as this conversation is concerned) is that what I see in front of me really exists. Apart from that, if you want to begin telling me that I should even consider the existence or non-existence of God, please begin by telling me what God is? What am I considering? Where is the faith in looking at my desk and computer, and seeing only my desk and computer? I don't see a rabid mongoose in a samurai outfit, and it takes no faith to work under the assumption that there's not one there.
quote: Let's try a more appropriate one. Take a deck of 52 cards. Shuffle it. Deal five cards. See if you get a royal straight flush. If you don't, repeat the process until you do. See how many tries it takes to get a royal straight flush. By the time (if ever) you get one, it would seem pretty damn improbable, huh? Now, try the same experiment, but instead of dealing for a royal straight flush, deal for a two of clubs, a queen of hearts, an ace of hearts, a ten of diamonds, and a six of diamonds. See how different the odds are. Here's a hint: they're exactly the same. A royal straight flush is simply a happier outcome, which would prompt anyone sitting on that hand to happily yell, "holy crap! What are the odds?" while ignoring that the odds are exactly the same as any other specific hand. Your brick factory metaphor receives the same response.
quote: I refer you to the many information threads on this forum. In the meantime, I will point out that you are once again using "God" as a synonym for "I don't know". They are not the same concept.
quote: So now complexity is what demands a creator? God, as our creator, would have to be far more complex than we are. So once again, we're moving the goalposts. Isn't it far more likely that the less complex humans had no creator than it is that the more complex God had no creator? "Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river." -Anya
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: And for my part, I'm glad I have the brain cell or two it would take to understand concepts like love and meaning independent of God, and the basic level of common respect for others it takes to keep from accusing people I've never even met of not knowing love, or living their lives bereft of meaning. "Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river." -Anya
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