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Author | Topic: As I Suspected... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.4
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Rrhain admits:
My apologies. I've corrected the attribution.
But Jon is a good participant here, like you. Welcome back.- xongsmith, 5.7d
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Jon Inactive Member |
Thus, to complain that the people being killed by the cops are "criminals, thugs, or hooligans" is to ignore the very racism that resulted in those people being "criminals, thugs, or hooligans" in the first place. Of course, blame someone else. But blaming someone else won't lower the inordinately high crime rates that plague African American communities Blaming someone else won't un-rob convenience stores; it won't un-bust up car dealerships; it won't un-wave a gun around in a public park. Racist oppression is not what is causing the high crime rate amongst African Americans. African Americans are committing more murders today than in 1975 (though it's down since a huge spike in the '80s and '90s). (Bureau of Justice Statistics pdf) In the middle of the twentieth century, African Americans made up a little less than 30% of the incarcerated population; by the turn of the 21st century the number had risen to 40%.
Decades after the Civil Rights movement and the dismantling of Jim Crow and we are still dealing with high crime and incarceration rates amongst African Americans. What's more, the racial discrimination of policing that you imply doesn't exist.
quote: Racist oppression is not what is causing the high crime rate amongst African Americans. There's something else going on; something that desperately needs to be discovered and addressed. Something that waving around sociology slogans and protesting in the streets over dead criminals won't fix.
And your invocation of MLK is very telling. I invoked nothing; I was responding to your invocation earlier in the thread. Your repeated attempts to draw a connection between BLM and MLK are not only erroneous, but sad and disgusting. The modern civil rights movement is failing the black folks it is meant to help, and black leaders and those in a position to do something about it need to have the courage to admit this.Love your enemies!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Jon responds to me:
quote: Of course, blame the victim. But blaming the victim won't solve the problem of crime. Blaming the victim won't make crime happen...because crime is at its lowest levels since we've started keeping track. Indeed, black people are incarcerated at vastly higher numbers than the presence in the population. That isn't a sign that blacks are criminally inclined. That's a sign of systemic racism. Blacks are more likely to be stopped, more likely to be questioned, more likely to be detained, more likely to be arrested, more likely to be prosecuted, more likely to be convicted, and more likely to receive a harsher sentence than white people. At every level, the justice system seeks to punish blacks more harshly than whites and you think that the presence of more blacks in the prison population is a problem of the black community rather than the racism of the justice system? Your statistics don't take into account the fact that blacks are a minority population. The raw numbers of black-on-white crime is higher than white-on-black crime, but that is because there are more white people in the population. For example, in 2010, according to the DOJ, 447 whites were killed by blacks compared to 218 blacks killed by whites. But because there aren't that many black people in the population, the white-on-black murder rate represents a much higher risk of a black person being killed by a white person than the risk of a white person being murdered by a black person. Any given black person is nearly three times more likely to be murdered by a white person than the other way around. This has to do with the encounter rate between races. Due to segregation (white flight, ghettoization, etc.), the typical person a white person meets has only about a 3% chance of being black. But the typical person a black person meets has about a 57% chance of being white. Given the number of offenders out there, the black-on-white crime rate is actually lower than what you would expect it to be. Um, did you read your own source? The claim isn't that the raw numbers of blacks killed by police is larger than whites but that a black person is more likely to be killed by a cop than a white person. And those numbers directly state it. According to the US Census, whites make up 77.7% of the population, blacks 13.2%, Hispanics 17.1%, and Asians 5.3% with American Indians and Alaskan Natives being 1.2%. So why is it blacks are getting shot at more than twice their representation in the population?
quote: Dismissing the very obvious racist oppression that is taking place and blaming the victims of it is deliberately ignoring the problem and pretending that it is merely "sociology slogans" will never fix it. And you're quite right that I invoked MLK. After all, he was confronted with your exact argument: That somehow "protesting in the streets" won't actually help anything. So if MLK himself says you're wrong about MLK's opinion, who are you to contradict him?Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Jon Inactive Member |
Of course, blame the victim. You'll note, and the record proves, that I didn't blame anyone. The only one interested in passing around blame instead of solving problems is you.
The claim isn't that the raw numbers of blacks killed by police is larger than whites but that a black person is more likely to be killed by a cop than a white person. And those numbers directly state it. According to the US Census, whites make up 77.7% of the population, blacks 13.2%, Hispanics 17.1%, and Asians 5.3% with American Indians and Alaskan Natives being 1.2%. So why is it blacks are getting shot at more than twice their representation in the population? The percentage of overall population isn't what matters; it's the percentage of representation in the criminal population. The truth is that the police aren't going around shooting random black people just for fun; nor are they going around shooting random white people just for fun. The shootings happen in the context of criminalor suspected criminalbehavior, and when you adjust for those figures, when police get themselves into a sticky situation with white people they are more likely to shoot the suspect than when they get themselves into a sticky situation with black people.
That isn't a sign that blacks are criminally inclined. I never said they were. I said that crime is a bigger problem in black communities than it is in white ones. And that's true.
That's a sign of systemic racism. And that's a flat-out lie. The percentage of the prison population that is black continues to rise even as old-style racism is becoming an endangered species. Unless you think there was less 'systemic racism' back in the days of Jim Crow, the fact that you could consider racism as the driving factor behind the rising black prison population is baffling. As I have said a number of times now, racism is not the cause of the disparities between white and black life achievement, and black folk agree (last question):
The same percentage of African Americans who recognize their poor position in life also do not attribute this to racism. And this should come as no surprise, since black people are well aware of the fact that white-against-black racism is not the problem it used to be. In fact, a larger percentage of blacks now consider blacks more racist that whites:
quote: And empirical evidence bears this out; African Americans are more likely to commit 'hate crimes' than white Americans (remember that whites comprise roughly 78% of the U.S. population, and blacks 13%):
quote: This is the true reality of racism in America. Racism against blacks is at levels lower than ever before, to the point that the trend of black racism against whites is overtaking white racism against blacks, yet the lot of African Americans continues to be poor and in many cases worsening. The logical conclusion to draw from this is that racism is not at the heart of the white-black achievement gap in the U.S., meaning that even if you got rid of all the racism among whites, it would only make a dimple of a difference in the life achievement gap between white and black Americans. The black community doesn't need your white guilt or your 'help' in fighting imagined racism. What disadvantaged African Americans need are real solutions with real impact on the real problems they face. Your approach is just old, tired, and ineffective. Your intentions may be good, but the evidence overwhelmingly shows they are misguided. Edited by Jon, : No reason given.Love your enemies!
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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"protesting in the streets" won't actually help anything. MLK didnt just make speeches. he was a hands-on activist. Real activism takes work. Interactions with families. food and clothing drives. Getting to know the community personally. Not simply climbing on soapboxes (or posting You Tube videos) and making speeches. This is, i think, Jons point. BLM is only effective so long as they walk the walk rather than simply talking to the media and getting press coverage. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Did the Black Lives Matter crusade lead to this?
Texas Deputy Slaying: Suspect Shannon Miles Charged in Killing of Darren Goforth Or did this? TEXAS DEPUTY Executed 2 Weeks After New Black Panthers Promised to Off the Pigs at Local Rally Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. |
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Phat responds to me:
quote: I agree. But what makes you think they're not? After all, their actions with Bernie Sanders have led to him taking them onto his campaign. Clinton is asking them to help her develop legislation. Exactly what is it they need to do that will result in Jon not considering the actions of two people not connected to the movement to dismiss the movement? Unlike ACT UP getting drug trials through, racism isn't going to end by changing some policies. Things like California deciding that officer-involved prosecutions are no longer taken to secret grand juries are a good thing, but there's more to be done and that's only one state. But BLM was part of the reason why it happened.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Jon responds to me:
quote: I see...and since blacks are criminals, their being killed more often by cops is just an artifact of them being criminals. If you're black holding a toy gun in a toy store that sells the toy gun, you're a criminal and should be shot. If you're a black child in a park playing with a toy gun, you're a criminal and should be shot. You're assuming that blacks are criminals and thus deserving of the treatment they are getting...and in the process ignoring the fact that white people engaging in even worse criminal activity such as shooting at the cops while being chased by them manage to get taken into custody while not getting shot. You seem to ignore that the entire justice system is rigged against black people so that you can blame them for the consequences of being caught in it. That somehow it's up to blacks to change their lives so that the cops stop shooting them.
quote: Incorrect. It is the exact opposite.
quote: And yet the facts contradict you. Your claim that "old-style racism is becoming an endangered species" simply isn't true and is being reinforced by more pervasive and subtle forms. In Ferguson, for example, despite the neighborhood being overwhelmingly black, the police force and justice department are overwhelmingly white.
quote:d Or, perhaps, system racism hasn't lessened but simply shifted in its methodology. When a black man can be pulled over simply for "making direct eye contact" with a cop, do you really think it's an "endangered species"?
Black man pulled over in Ohio for making 'direct eye contact' with cops is from Detroit quote: Do you really not understand the difference between "perception" and actuality? Your survey only looks at what people think, not at what actually happens. You can't be aware of things that you aren't paying attention to. When you don't get the job, you don't have access to the other applicants to be able to determine if it was race that was involved in you not getting an interview. But even your survey indicates blacks see a much higher level of discrimination. Why do you dismiss them? The black community doesn't need your pontificating. Your insistence that we are somehow "post-racial" is ineffective. Your refusal to recognize reality will ensure that no "real" solution to "real" problems will ever happen. Your intentions may be good, but the evidence overwhelmingly shows they are misguided.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Jon Inactive Member |
If you think fighting racism is going to have a significant impact on the lives of African Americans, then prove it.
As you know, I've already started a thread where you can lay out your argument with all your evidence and logic. This thread is specifically about BLM and is not the place to make the argument you're trying to make.Love your enemies!
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
I think fighting colonialism had a significant impact on colonial Americans. There seems to be a parallel....
If you think fighting racism is going to have a significant impact on the lives of African Americans, then prove it.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Jon responds to me:
quote: Did you not just claim MLK for yourself? What do you think he was fighting against? Merely poverty? Do you really think the Civil Rights Act had no significant impact on the lives of black people in this country?
quote: And as you know, I've already pointed out the fallacy of your opening post.
quote: And exactly what do you think BLM is doing? Oh, that's right...they're just a bunch of rabble-rousers who want to whine. That's why you can dismiss them after seeing two people who aren't even connected to BLM make life slightly inconvenient for a white man.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Jon Inactive Member |
The other thread's open, Rrhain, whenever you're ready to lay down some numbers.
Love your enemies!
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