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Author
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Topic: Is there any such thing as an absolute?
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 7 of 109 (718198)
02-05-2014 11:23 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Dogmafood
02-05-2014 7:46 AM
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ProtoTypical writes: So the question is 'Is there any such thing as an absolute?'
There are theoretical absolutes. Absolute zero is the situation in which there is no kinetic energy. But is the theory absolutely accurate? There are mathematical absolutes. If I owe you five dollars, it's minus five on my balance sheet and plus five on yours but it's the same five dollars. The absolute value is five. Five is five.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Dogmafood, posted 02-05-2014 7:46 AM | | Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 13 of 109 (718350)
02-06-2014 11:06 AM
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Reply to: Message 11 by Dogmafood
02-06-2014 8:20 AM
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ProtoTypical writes: It seems like a silly question and that the answer is of course there is. The question about whether or not we can know it is a separate question.
I don't think it's a separate question at all. If you don't/can't know what the absolute truth is, how can you know it's absolute?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by Dogmafood, posted 02-06-2014 8:20 AM | | Dogmafood has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 31 of 109 (718525)
02-07-2014 10:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 26 by Dogmafood
02-06-2014 11:00 PM
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ProtoTypical writes: I am certain that no one can tell me exactly how many suns there are in the milky way but I am equally certain that there is an absolutely correct answer to that question. I see that this is different from the question about universal absolutes where the full set cannot be observed or perhaps even imagined.
I can see the distinction. My peeve is that fundamentalists have abused the concept of absolutes so far that I'd like to swing the pendulum in the opposite direction by using a very strict definition of absolute.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 26 by Dogmafood, posted 02-06-2014 11:00 PM | | Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 38 of 109 (718903)
02-09-2014 1:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 37 by Dogmafood
02-09-2014 9:34 AM
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Re: Vanishing point
ProtoTypical writes: I say that doubt should have a vanishing point.
Doubt is asymptotic to the vanishing point.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 37 by Dogmafood, posted 02-09-2014 9:34 AM | | Dogmafood has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 59 of 109 (719801)
02-18-2014 11:06 AM
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Reply to: Message 56 by Dogmafood
02-16-2014 5:48 AM
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Re: Ice cream makes it better
ProtoTypical writes: I believe that the truth shall set us free.
Relative truth sets us relatively free. If there was absoulte truth, would it set us absolutely free? What is absolute freedom?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by Dogmafood, posted 02-16-2014 5:48 AM | | Dogmafood has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 68 of 109 (720102)
02-20-2014 10:57 AM
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Reply to: Message 65 by Dogmafood
02-20-2014 7:22 AM
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Re: Ice cream makes it better
ProtoTypical writes: ringo writes: If there was absoulte truth, would it set us absolutely free?
I would say that knowing any truth allows you to be freer than you would be if you did not know it.
So both truth and freedom are relative.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by Dogmafood, posted 02-20-2014 7:22 AM | | Dogmafood has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 70 of 109 (720112)
02-20-2014 11:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
02-20-2014 11:02 AM
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Re: Ice cream makes it better
Phat writes: Oh oh...sounds like I hear another protest against being relatively unable to proclaim ones own absolute hence rendering true freewill a farce.
There's no need to "render" free will a farce; it is a farce.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 69 by Phat, posted 02-20-2014 11:02 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 71 by Phat, posted 02-20-2014 11:30 AM | | ringo has replied | | | Message 74 by 1.61803, posted 02-21-2014 9:50 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 72 of 109 (720120)
02-20-2014 11:37 AM
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Reply to: Message 71 by Phat
02-20-2014 11:30 AM
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Re: Should God Exist
Phat writes: If God exists and is the Creator of all things seen and unseen, should He allow humans the right to be autonomous in regards to our beliefs and philosophy?
The question isn't "should" He but "would" He. Why would a God not want us to be autonomous? What effect could our autonomy have on Him? Why would He worry about our autonomy and not the tapeworms'?
Phat writes: We could say that certain things are absolutes...such as the laws of gravity...assuming we allow for new absolutes to erase old absolutes as our knowledge increases.
Anything that can be erased or replaced is not absolute.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 71 by Phat, posted 02-20-2014 11:30 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 77 of 109 (720277)
02-21-2014 10:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 73 by Dogmafood
02-21-2014 9:20 AM
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Re: Ice cream makes it better
ProtoTypical writes: The fact that a thing may look different to different observers does not mean that the thing does not have absolute qualities.
But it does mean that no observer can know what those absolute qualities are - and a group of observers can only approximate what those qualities are. If we have know way of knowing what the absolute qualities are what's the point of insisting that there "are" absolute qualities?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 73 by Dogmafood, posted 02-21-2014 9:20 AM | | Dogmafood has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 78 of 109 (720278)
02-21-2014 10:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 74 by 1.61803
02-21-2014 9:50 AM
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Re: Ice cream makes it better
1.62985 writes: Hi Ringo, I suppose trumpeting ethereal elephants are forcing you by gun point to post that message against your will.
Well, the choices I have are two hours on a computer that's older than you or one hour on a decent computer or no Internet access at all. "Free will" should give me at least one good choice, shouldn't it?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 74 by 1.61803, posted 02-21-2014 9:50 AM | | 1.61803 has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 81 of 109 (720284)
02-21-2014 11:05 AM
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Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
02-21-2014 10:55 AM
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Re: Ice cream makes it better
Phat writes: Would absolute freedom free us forGods foreknown purpose or would it free us from any interference by any entity--God or not--that we may fulfill our destiny our way?
Would you rather have freedom "for" a tapeworm's purpose or freedom from a tapeworm?
Phat writes: The God that I conceive of is far wiser than I am and thus I have no problem allowing His destiny and purpose to manifest through me.
That's fine. Just don't pretend it's freedom. There's not much difference between freely giving up your freedom and having it forcibly taken away from you.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by Phat, posted 02-21-2014 10:55 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 82 of 109 (720285)
02-21-2014 11:07 AM
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Reply to: Message 80 by Stile
02-21-2014 11:00 AM
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Re: Absolute free will
Stile writes: The term is more generally thought to indicate that we are able to choose between the options that are available to us at will. ...not create whatever options we want.
My point is that a choice between a good option and a bad option is not free will.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by Stile, posted 02-21-2014 11:00 AM | | Stile has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 83 by Phat, posted 02-21-2014 11:38 AM | | ringo has replied | | | Message 87 by Stile, posted 02-21-2014 12:24 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 85 of 109 (720294)
02-21-2014 11:51 AM
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Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
02-21-2014 11:38 AM
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Re: Absolute free will
Phat writes: I know I know....who judges the value of the options? My answer? YOU DO!
Yes indeed, which makes the choice subjective and relative.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by Phat, posted 02-21-2014 11:38 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 89 by Phat, posted 02-22-2014 10:40 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 86 of 109 (720296)
02-21-2014 11:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 84 by 1.61803
02-21-2014 11:47 AM
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Re: Ice cream makes it better
4.62983 writes: But once the choice is made and set into motion, determinism takes over.
Relative to the topic, as long as we don't know what the absolute outcome will be we only have a subjective, relative guess as to what we are actually choosing.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 84 by 1.61803, posted 02-21-2014 11:47 AM | | 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 90 of 109 (720372)
02-22-2014 10:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 87 by Stile
02-21-2014 12:24 PM
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Re: Absolute free will
Stile writes: ... are you then saying that all our choices are between good options and bad options?
I would say more like: all our choices are between good options and not-quite-so-good options. Since we wouldn't "choose" a bad option over a good option, it isn't really a choice, is it?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by Stile, posted 02-21-2014 12:24 PM | | Stile has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 99 by Stile, posted 02-24-2014 10:45 AM | | ringo has replied |
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