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Author Topic:   I don't believe in God, I believe in Gravity
Straggler
Member (Idle past 96 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 622 of 693 (711817)
11-22-2013 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 619 by ringo
11-22-2013 12:12 PM


Re: What happened to methodological naturalism?
Straggelr writes:
That's why I disagree with those who confidently assert that supernatural explanations can never ever possibly be objectively evidenced.
Ringo writes:
I don't know if anybody is saying that.
Ask jar how a supernatural hypothesis can be evdenced.
Ringo writes:
You can't know that.
Show me what I can know.
A major source of confrontation here seems to be then massive difference in what people "know". Look at CS's posts for that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 619 by ringo, posted 11-22-2013 12:12 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 633 by ringo, posted 11-23-2013 10:41 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 96 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 673 of 693 (712122)
11-27-2013 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 620 by jar
11-22-2013 12:21 PM


Re: Predictions
But what do we actually test? We don’t test the natural. We test a hypothesis. More specifically - We test the predictions of a hypothesis.
Ditto for the supernatural. We don't test "the supernatural". We test the predictions of the hypothesis in question.
Which part of this is confusing you?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by jar, posted 11-22-2013 12:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 677 by jar, posted 11-27-2013 3:24 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 96 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 674 of 693 (712123)
11-27-2013 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 621 by New Cat's Eye
11-22-2013 1:50 PM


Re: What happened to methodological naturalism?
CS writes:
As I said before, if it has objective empirical evidence and we can make predictions of it, then it is what we would label as natural.
No. You are conflating a scientific explanation with objective empirical evidence that something exists.
In my scenario we have objective empirical evidence of the supernatural hypothesis in question (i.e. GOD imbuing the devout with miraculous healing powers). We have predictable testable cause and effect.
But that doesn't mean the healing powers in question have a scientific explanation or that GOD has now transformed into "natural" somehow.
Why do supermnatural things have to be random rather than predictable? Who says so?
CS writes:
That's one of the reasons I'm not an atheist. I've had experiences that made me think that there's other stuff going on here that falls outside of what science knows.
CS previoulsy in this thread writes:
Subjective evidence can certainly be ignored, isn't really all that genuine, and doesn't give us a good indication of much of anything.
That seems contradictory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-22-2013 1:50 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 693 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-02-2013 3:59 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 96 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 675 of 693 (712124)
11-27-2013 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 633 by ringo
11-23-2013 10:41 AM


Re: What happened to methodological naturalism?
All knowledge, most definitley scientific knowlegde, is both tenative and fallible.
Whether pertaining to the past present or future.
Ringo writes:
You can't know the future; you can only believe in it.
Can you know the past?
Do you know that the world wasn't created 5 seconds ago fully formed and inclusive of all our memories? Or do you believe that?
Can you know the present?
Are you dreaming? Do you know you aren't? Or do you believe that you aren't?
Your use of the term "know" imposes unachievable restrictions of certainty that are entirely pointless.
We can know rather than believe when the next eclipse will occur in the same way that we can know rather than believe that evolution occurred. Past or future has little bearing here.
We know lots of things that might be wrong. Fallibilism
This is a basic tenet of scientific investigation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 633 by ringo, posted 11-23-2013 10:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 678 by ringo, posted 11-28-2013 10:40 AM Straggler has not replied
 Message 679 by Dogmafood, posted 11-28-2013 7:48 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 96 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 676 of 693 (712126)
11-27-2013 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 644 by Phat
11-24-2013 11:25 AM


Re: Predictions
I have no idea what accountability has to do with anything here. It's simply a question of whether or not supernatural agents (if such things exist) can in principle be objectively evidenced or not.
The question remains - Why is it not conceivably possible for this to occur?
If GOD (the supernatural creator of all that is seen and unseen) chose to come to us in material form and undertake miracles that can be witnessed by anyone, video recorded etc. etc. - Then why couldn't this conceivably happen?
What "by definition" attribute of supernatural GOD makes this scenario impossible?
I would have thought Christians would be quite receptive to that idea....? Instead they seem to recoil in horror at the idea that objective evidence ever could occur and prefer to stick to visions and voices type "evidence". Why is that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 644 by Phat, posted 11-24-2013 11:25 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

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