I don't believe in God, I believe in Gravity

Claim: Angel feathers falling from on high cause the smell of god's armpit to fill your nose as they brush past you.Non-scientific method of proof: Pray real hard and god will guide you to interpret the bible accordingly.Well, that was easy. Wanna nother one?

You mean there's more than one?Angles pushing you down so you don't float up to heaven before your time.That's it, man. I've prayed on it hard and interpreted it hard and that's what god revealed to me. And so it is.Anything else you might pull out your butt to compete with this, like that apple guy or the weird hair dude, well that's all just science and is not in the bible.

You're one of them moon conspiracy freaks aren't you? The whole thing was a fake you know.Besides, they're not in my version of the bible so ... who cares? It's success is wholly contained in the fact that I prayed upon it, thought about it and consulted with god about it. It's to my liking and, just so happens, god agrees. He told me so. Himself.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Not enough grapes on this planet for sure. Since a vintage Cabernet is unique to this planet no grape-like organism from anywhere in the visible universe would do.There are not enough grapes in the universe to fill Lake Erie let alone the others as well. Would it? You are familiar with some of the many-worlds hypotheses, I'm sure. Some of them posit an infinite number of universes.In a multiverse of infinite universes all things happen and do so without resort to anything supernatural. In a multiverse of infinite universes some infinite subset of them will have an earth where on Wednesday, November 13, 2013, at 9:42 am, all the water in the great lakes instantly turns into wine. And not just any wine but a Chteauneuf-du-Pape, 1976.So who's to say this is not one of those worlds? Is it Bacchus playing with the horde or is it a physics we do not yet comprehend?If a thunder cloud rolls across the land then parts to reveal a super large golden throne with a super large long-haired gray- bearded white guy seated on it thundering "I am the Lord thy God!" while thousands of little people with wings flutter in rows and columns to each side, is this a supernatural event?Or, is it a technologically advanced race of aliens taking advantage of the fact that these dumb apes still believe in this god crap?My point is no matter how bizarre the occurrence, no matter how it violates how many laws of physics of which we are presently aware, natural or supernatural, we might never know. It is therefor unknown without any other classification, no natural, no supernatural.

Iowa farm boy ... with style. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeJ55sUacPM

So you are saying that if we know an occurance is natural all is well and good, but if we do not know that an occurance is natural it is therefor supernatural?Upthread here you answered jar with the thunder thing. You suggest that since the source of thunder was unknown to the Norse therefor it was supernatural. Since it is known to us today therefor it is no longer supernatural.I suggest that thunder was not supernatural, ever. That some culture perceived thunder as supernatural because thy did not understand its cause did not make the source of thunder supernatural.In fact, to the Norse, thunder had an unknown cause and in their ignorance they perceived thunder as supernatural and then built myths around it. Just because the Norse perceived (a better word might be assumed) supernatural did not in fact make thunder supernatural. There was a natural cause for thunder all along, the Norse just did not know what it was.Are you being snared in the same trap? If some occurance has an unknown cause are you saying it must be supernatural?Crop circles (used to) have an unknown cause. Were they supernatural? Do we change UFO to SFO?Right now, at this time, we do not know all there is in physics. We have a lot yet to learn.So for our Great Wine Lakes can you be absolutely certain that this was not the result of some yet unknown physics? Are the Great Wine Lakes your Norse thunder?

Then its truth value is only to the individual and has no value to the rest of the universe. It cannot be used as evidence of anything other than the emotion of the individual.

There we are. The base difference of opinion. We can choose up sides but, language being what it is, both are correct in their own spheres.So let me throw in a third correct opinion.The word supernatural is so emotion laden that it has become soiled.Supernatural associates with gods, spirits, religion, the woo of super beings with super powers, unseen magical forces and with all those the baggage of irrationality, faith rather than reason, and preposterous beliefs.While I sympathize with Stile's attempt to rehabilitate the word to its classical meaning, IMHO this is a losing cause. The woo connotations are too deeply entrenched in the mind of most listeners. The word viscerally invokes other meanings and cannot be used to mean simply that which is unexplained by natural laws. It is broken.We have a history of attaching supernatural to occurrences of unknown cause. With this has come all the attendant embellishments of unseen magical forces then entities to wield those forces then the rituals then the personification into gods then more rituals then schisms then war. All because the cause was unknown.As with so many black boxes padlocked and labeled Supernatural Inside whenever we have found the key, some new physics, opened the box and looked inside all we have ever found is natural.In the case of matter or energy being created or destroyed, or the instantiation of the Great Wine Lakes, or the videos of priests healing the dead, raising lost limbs and regrowing the terminally ill the causes would be unknown. Another set of padlocked black boxes.Unless one means to say god done it or it's woo-woo magic the word supernatural is not a conducive placeholder for unknown.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

A miracle? Sure. But, supernatural?So was it a supernatural god or a natural advanced alien with a natural medical tricorder that had a natural regenerate button?

I assumed the occurrence was genuine in order to make the point.But, yes, charlatans are pervasive. You are right ... yet again.This is becoming a habit with you. You can stop now.

Uhh ... I'm not sure if I have the wrong impression here or if you do.I meant that as a kinda sideways compliment to jar.

Big. The one is under the normal bell curve but waaay out there at the pointy end of the right hand tail. The other doesn't exist. Great! When can we get started?The point is that these hypotheticals never exist so there is no point in addressing them.Edited by AZPaul3, : corrections

Since semantics made supernatural a null subset of miracle.On a slick icy road I skid. The variable uncertainty of physics came together at that precise moment in such a fashion I slid right around, like 270^o, the bridge abutment with not even a scratch on my driver's side door (from where I had watched in fascinated slow motion).Given that a fraction of a second or a fraction of a millimeter difference in any of the thousands of data points involved (all possibilities under the curve) would have meant a banged up car or a dead yours truly, that is miracle enough for me. I don't, since there hasn't been one. I cannot speak for the believer, nor for any skeptic but myself, but the big problem is the penchant for humans to jump to a "supernatural" conclusion in the face of the unknown and the woo-woo anti-science, illogical, irrational tripe that comes with it. If the word could be whipped back into the cage of its classical meaning, and Stile is trying hard, that would be different. But he hasn't and it isn't.

We dance!