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Author Topic:   I don't believe in God, I believe in Gravity
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 362 of 693 (710964)
11-13-2013 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by Dogmafood
11-12-2013 6:35 PM


Re: It's All In your Mind
ProtoTypical writes:
So then standing up would be a method for sitting down that just wasn't rooted in reality?
You're trying to make it a black-is-white issue but that isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about a situation where we do know the reality and a situation where we don't. It isn't a question of standing up or sitting down; it's a question of standing up or turning water into wine. Both standing up and sitting down are grounded in reality. Turning water into wine is not.
ProtoTypical writes:
I always thought that logic and reason were more like universal standards as opposed to being like your favourite colour.
Come on, you know the drill: reliable conclusions depend on true premises and sound reasoning. The weakness of religion is its lack of true (verifiable) premises. The reasoning behind religion may or may not be sound.
ProtoTypical writes:
How does that go, 'you can have your own opinions but you can't have your own facts'.
In this context it would be more like, "you can have the best reasoning in the world but if you're reasoning from turtles your conclusions may vary."
ProtoTypical writes:
So the word bound does not mean 'without boundaries'....
But it can mean different boundaries.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Dogmafood, posted 11-12-2013 6:35 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by Dogmafood, posted 11-17-2013 8:23 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 432 of 693 (711162)
11-15-2013 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 425 by 1.61803
11-15-2013 10:52 AM


Re: What happened to methodological naturalism?
1.61803 writes:
You are in a room in a chair. In the next room is God.
God turns on a light switch in the adjacent room. You see the light go on.
Now I go into the room. I turn on the light switch.
Now you are asked: " who turned on the light first?"
In context, you can't go into the room. There is no door between the natural and the supernatural.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by 1.61803, posted 11-15-2013 10:52 AM 1.61803 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 441 of 693 (711176)
11-15-2013 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by 1.61803
11-15-2013 12:14 PM


Re: The hypothetico-deductive method
1.61803 writes:
The supernatural is just a word. Not a claim infering cause or explaination.
Welcome to Square One. The supernatural is not an inference; it's a belief. Belief is what we (can) fall back on when no inference is possible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by 1.61803, posted 11-15-2013 12:14 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 462 of 693 (711247)
11-16-2013 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 454 by Straggler
11-15-2013 2:16 PM


Re: The hypothetico-deductive method
Straggler writes:
When are you going to stop conflating "there is no evidence" with "there can be no evidence"...?
GOD is pretty much defined as "there can be no evidence". It's a Catch-22 situation: if you have evidence, it isn't evidence of GOD. At best it's an image of GOD.
It isn't a concept that I'm particularly comfortable with but it isn't difficult to understand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by Straggler, posted 11-15-2013 2:16 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by Jon, posted 11-16-2013 4:36 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 464 by Straggler, posted 11-16-2013 9:38 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 472 of 693 (711323)
11-17-2013 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by Straggler
11-16-2013 9:38 PM


Re: The hypothetico-deductive method
Straggler writes:
Actually jar has previously told me that the term GOD is devoid of definition.
There is always something that is beyond our capacity to define it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by Straggler, posted 11-16-2013 9:38 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by Straggler, posted 11-19-2013 7:49 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 473 of 693 (711324)
11-17-2013 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 468 by Dogmafood
11-17-2013 8:23 AM


Re: It's All In your Mind
ProtoTypical writes:
The reason that it is not sound is because sound reasoning requires sound premises.
You're conflating. Premises are essentially separate from the reasoning based on those premises. You can reason badly on good premises and you can reason well on bad premises.
Reasoning based on the premise that gods exist can be perfectly sound - only the conclusions are suspect because the premise is suspect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by Dogmafood, posted 11-17-2013 8:23 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 475 by Dogmafood, posted 11-17-2013 9:32 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 477 of 693 (711404)
11-18-2013 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 475 by Dogmafood
11-17-2013 9:32 PM


Re: It's All In your Mind
ProtoTypical writes:
The premise must be falsifiable in order to be worked on by the reasoning process.
The truth of the premise is assigned by a separate reasoning process. For a given reasoning "session" (e.g. a syllogism) the premises and the reasoning itself are independent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by Dogmafood, posted 11-17-2013 9:32 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by Dogmafood, posted 11-18-2013 6:43 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 493 of 693 (711474)
11-19-2013 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 479 by Dogmafood
11-18-2013 6:43 PM


Re: It's All In your Mind
ProtoTypical writes:
A separate reasoning event but the process is the same.
The mechanism is the same.
I don't know what your point is or if you're being deliberately obtuse. What I'm trying to say is that religious people can use perfectly good reasoning - i.e. no fallacies - on premises that are not verified or verifiable.
A bad conclusion can come from bad premises OR bad reasoning OR both. Bad conclusions do NOT automatically indicate either bad premises or bad reasoning. Bad conclusions only indicate that EITHER the premise or the reasoning is faulty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by Dogmafood, posted 11-18-2013 6:43 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 500 by Dogmafood, posted 11-19-2013 10:29 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 494 of 693 (711475)
11-19-2013 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 481 by Straggler
11-19-2013 7:49 AM


Re: The hypothetico-deductive method
Straggler writes:
Then call it X and say you don't know or believe anything about it because you couldn't possibly know or believe things about a completely undefined conceptless concept.
Let's go back to the locked room mystery.
You're in a room and the lights keep going on and off. You can't find a light switch in the room. You can't find a Clapper. You can't find a doorway to another room. You presume that the lights going on and off has a cause but you can't find a cause.
The cause might be an invisible entity in the room using an invisible switch or an inaudible clap or it might be an entity in an adjoining room that you can't detect. With the information you have, you can't tell which it is or if it's something else. Some day you might find a hidden door with a man behind a curtain who wants you to bring him a broomstick - but for now the only information you have is that the lights go on and off.
You can believe whatever you want about the cause but there is no explanation to accept.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by Straggler, posted 11-19-2013 7:49 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 503 by Straggler, posted 11-20-2013 9:27 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 509 of 693 (711561)
11-20-2013 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 500 by Dogmafood
11-19-2013 10:29 PM


Re: It's All In your Mind
ProtoTypical writes:
Foundations are fundamental.
Yes, foundations are fundamental but they're also fundamentally separate from what is built on them.
ProtTypical writes:
Rational thinking should begin when you formulate your premises not after.
We begin with premises and we draw conclusions based on those premises. Often we can only tell the validity of the premises from how well the conclusions match reality.
Protypical writes:
Being partially reasonable is not the same as being completely reasonable.
There is no such thing as being "completely reasonable". That's why we have to rinse and repeat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by Dogmafood, posted 11-19-2013 10:29 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 535 by Dogmafood, posted 11-20-2013 7:01 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 510 of 693 (711563)
11-20-2013 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 503 by Straggler
11-20-2013 9:27 AM


Re: Ignostic
Straggler writes:
ignostic (plural ignostics)
1. one who holds to ignosticism.
2. one who requires a definition of the term God or Gods as without sensible definition they find theism incoherent and thus non-cognitive.
It's probably possible to be a theist without finding theism coherent.
If there is no door between natural and supernatural, how can you define what's behind the door?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 503 by Straggler, posted 11-20-2013 9:27 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 539 by Straggler, posted 11-21-2013 8:15 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 555 of 693 (711676)
11-21-2013 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 535 by Dogmafood
11-20-2013 7:01 PM


Re: It's All In your Mind
ProtoTypical writes:
... if you don't then take what you have learned and adjust some part of your argument then you are not being rational.
Sometimes you reach the end of the line and you can't make any more adjustments. That's when belief comes in.
That's why I keep making a distinction between accepting what can be adjusted and believing what can not be adjusted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 535 by Dogmafood, posted 11-20-2013 7:01 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 598 by Dogmafood, posted 11-22-2013 7:18 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 557 of 693 (711679)
11-21-2013 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 539 by Straggler
11-21-2013 8:15 AM


Re: Ignostic
Straggler writes:
If you want to further list the 'by definition' attributes that this 'beyond definition' entity has then be my guest.
What is beyond definition has no definable attributes.
Straggler writes:
As for your door - I'm Ignostic about it.
You shouldn't need a further definition of a door.
If there is no explanation for what is happening inside the room, one possible postulate is that something is happening outside the room which has effects inside the room. If we can't find a door leading to the outside, when it comes to investigating what's outside we're screwed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by Straggler, posted 11-21-2013 8:15 AM Straggler has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 613 of 693 (711793)
11-22-2013 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 598 by Dogmafood
11-22-2013 7:18 AM


Re: It's All In your Mind
ProtoTypical writes:
But logic tells us that belief should only come in when you do not need to make any more adjustments.
What's the difference between not needing to make any more adjustments and not being able to make any more adjustments?
ProtoTypical writes:
The religious mind refuses to adjust the faulty premise.
You're over-generalizing. Some religious minds refuse to adjust some faulty premises. "The" religious mind just doesn't stop when it runs out of verifiable premises.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 598 by Dogmafood, posted 11-22-2013 7:18 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 658 by Dogmafood, posted 11-25-2013 8:09 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 619 of 693 (711803)
11-22-2013 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 617 by Straggler
11-22-2013 11:57 AM


Re: What happened to methodological naturalism?
Straggler writes:
That's why I disagree with those who confidently assert that supernatural explanations can never ever possibly be objectively evidenced.
I don't know if anybody is saying that. What I hear is that there may be some things that can never ever possibly be objectively evidenced and we call those things "supernatural". It's a term for what's outside the room. It's the paper that the Venn diagram is drawn on.
Straggler writes:
They can. They just aren't.
You can't know that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by Straggler, posted 11-22-2013 11:57 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 622 by Straggler, posted 11-22-2013 2:43 PM ringo has replied

  
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