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Junior Member (Idle past 3496 days) Posts: 28 From: Australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: I don't believe in God, I believe in Gravity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ProtoTypical writes:
You're trying to make it a black-is-white issue but that isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about a situation where we do know the reality and a situation where we don't. It isn't a question of standing up or sitting down; it's a question of standing up or turning water into wine. Both standing up and sitting down are grounded in reality. Turning water into wine is not.
So then standing up would be a method for sitting down that just wasn't rooted in reality? ProtoTypical writes:
Come on, you know the drill: reliable conclusions depend on true premises and sound reasoning. The weakness of religion is its lack of true (verifiable) premises. The reasoning behind religion may or may not be sound.
I always thought that logic and reason were more like universal standards as opposed to being like your favourite colour. ProtoTypical writes:
In this context it would be more like, "you can have the best reasoning in the world but if you're reasoning from turtles your conclusions may vary."
How does that go, 'you can have your own opinions but you can't have your own facts'. ProtoTypical writes:
But it can mean different boundaries.
So the word bound does not mean 'without boundaries'....
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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1.61803 writes:
In context, you can't go into the room. There is no door between the natural and the supernatural.
You are in a room in a chair. In the next room is God.God turns on a light switch in the adjacent room. You see the light go on. Now I go into the room. I turn on the light switch. Now you are asked: " who turned on the light first?"
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
1.61803 writes:
Welcome to Square One. The supernatural is not an inference; it's a belief. Belief is what we (can) fall back on when no inference is possible.
The supernatural is just a word. Not a claim infering cause or explaination.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Straggler writes:
GOD is pretty much defined as "there can be no evidence". It's a Catch-22 situation: if you have evidence, it isn't evidence of GOD. At best it's an image of GOD. When are you going to stop conflating "there is no evidence" with "there can be no evidence"...? It isn't a concept that I'm particularly comfortable with but it isn't difficult to understand.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Straggler writes:
There is always something that is beyond our capacity to define it.
Actually jar has previously told me that the term GOD is devoid of definition.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ProtoTypical writes:
You're conflating. Premises are essentially separate from the reasoning based on those premises. You can reason badly on good premises and you can reason well on bad premises. The reason that it is not sound is because sound reasoning requires sound premises. Reasoning based on the premise that gods exist can be perfectly sound - only the conclusions are suspect because the premise is suspect.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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ProtoTypical writes:
The truth of the premise is assigned by a separate reasoning process. For a given reasoning "session" (e.g. a syllogism) the premises and the reasoning itself are independent.
The premise must be falsifiable in order to be worked on by the reasoning process.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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ProtoTypical writes:
The mechanism is the same. A separate reasoning event but the process is the same. I don't know what your point is or if you're being deliberately obtuse. What I'm trying to say is that religious people can use perfectly good reasoning - i.e. no fallacies - on premises that are not verified or verifiable. A bad conclusion can come from bad premises OR bad reasoning OR both. Bad conclusions do NOT automatically indicate either bad premises or bad reasoning. Bad conclusions only indicate that EITHER the premise or the reasoning is faulty.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Straggler writes:
Let's go back to the locked room mystery. Then call it X and say you don't know or believe anything about it because you couldn't possibly know or believe things about a completely undefined conceptless concept. You're in a room and the lights keep going on and off. You can't find a light switch in the room. You can't find a Clapper. You can't find a doorway to another room. You presume that the lights going on and off has a cause but you can't find a cause. The cause might be an invisible entity in the room using an invisible switch or an inaudible clap or it might be an entity in an adjoining room that you can't detect. With the information you have, you can't tell which it is or if it's something else. Some day you might find a hidden door with a man behind a curtain who wants you to bring him a broomstick - but for now the only information you have is that the lights go on and off. You can believe whatever you want about the cause but there is no explanation to accept.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ProtoTypical writes:
Yes, foundations are fundamental but they're also fundamentally separate from what is built on them.
Foundations are fundamental. ProtTypical writes:
We begin with premises and we draw conclusions based on those premises. Often we can only tell the validity of the premises from how well the conclusions match reality.
Rational thinking should begin when you formulate your premises not after. Protypical writes:
There is no such thing as being "completely reasonable". That's why we have to rinse and repeat.
Being partially reasonable is not the same as being completely reasonable.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Straggler writes:
It's probably possible to be a theist without finding theism coherent. ignostic (plural ignostics) 1. one who holds to ignosticism.2. one who requires a definition of the term God or Gods as without sensible definition they find theism incoherent and thus non-cognitive. If there is no door between natural and supernatural, how can you define what's behind the door?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ProtoTypical writes:
Sometimes you reach the end of the line and you can't make any more adjustments. That's when belief comes in. ... if you don't then take what you have learned and adjust some part of your argument then you are not being rational. That's why I keep making a distinction between accepting what can be adjusted and believing what can not be adjusted.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Straggler writes:
What is beyond definition has no definable attributes.
If you want to further list the 'by definition' attributes that this 'beyond definition' entity has then be my guest. Straggler writes:
You shouldn't need a further definition of a door. As for your door - I'm Ignostic about it. If there is no explanation for what is happening inside the room, one possible postulate is that something is happening outside the room which has effects inside the room. If we can't find a door leading to the outside, when it comes to investigating what's outside we're screwed.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ProtoTypical writes:
What's the difference between not needing to make any more adjustments and not being able to make any more adjustments?
But logic tells us that belief should only come in when you do not need to make any more adjustments. ProtoTypical writes:
You're over-generalizing. Some religious minds refuse to adjust some faulty premises. "The" religious mind just doesn't stop when it runs out of verifiable premises.
The religious mind refuses to adjust the faulty premise.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Straggler writes:
I don't know if anybody is saying that. What I hear is that there may be some things that can never ever possibly be objectively evidenced and we call those things "supernatural". It's a term for what's outside the room. It's the paper that the Venn diagram is drawn on.
That's why I disagree with those who confidently assert that supernatural explanations can never ever possibly be objectively evidenced. Straggler writes:
You can't know that.
They can. They just aren't.
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