A young sun - a response

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I don't think it nullifies anything that you have said. You have agreed that the earth (and I presume) sun are billions of years old haven't you.

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Ned, please read my post #93. I've never ever said I believe the sun to be old.

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The sun could burn just fine if it was all hydrogen. The only reason there is helium is because of the primordial helium (from the big bang) and the helium produced by over 4 Gyrs of hydrogen fusion.

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LOL. I'm sure nobody but nobody knows exactly how the absense of helium in the sun would affect the earth or perzactly why it's there. You're acting as if we mere humans absolutely, as gods, know everything about everything there is to know. I dooooon't thiiiiink soooo.

Buzsaw, In removing the helium, & replacing it with an equivalent amount of hydrogen (based upon the amount of liberated energy during fusion) would have a negligible effect on the sun & it's affect on us, apart from extending the suns life, that is. It would produce the same J/s, & that's all that matters.If you are asserting that solar helium is vital to human/earthly existence, then I suggest you show it. Baseless assertions are meaningless.Mark

Yes we do know how to calculate the effects of changing the solar mixture. The physics is not that complicated in principle. Any good stellar evolution code can calculate models with arbitrary mixtures.This is all basic statistical mechanics, thermodynamics, radiative transfer theory, atomic & nuclear physics. This material is well understood. The only difficulty prior to the last 3 decades was the sheer number of computations required and accurate opacities and equation of state for matter at the requisite density/temperature.As I type this on my laptop I have a such a code on my laptop. I can run a model in about 20 minutes that evolves a solar model from the pre-main sequence Hyashi track through to 5 billion years.I takes me literally 1 minute to change the input model to having zero Helium.By the way, much of the physics required is done at Los Alamos as they needed a way of calculating the opacity & equation of state of a plasma. I wonder why? - LOL

I see I misunderstood your position It is such a bizare idea that the earth is old but the sun and moon aren't I managed to mess that up.It appears then that you are saying "he made what we see and what we see is imo, Biblically speaking not old but scientifically appears to be old." that God is a liar. I'm very surprised at that.

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It appears then that you are saying "he made what we see and what we see is imo, Biblically speaking not old but scientifically appears to be old." that God is a liar. I'm very surprised at that.

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No, Ned, it would in no way indicate that God's a liar atol. It's just that scientists interpret what is observed wrongly. Ye folk think ye know it all and it's what ye don't know that's the problem with the thinking of thee and thy interpretation of things observed. Ye'r tryin to blame God fer the ignorance of thee.

Well, regardless of whether it's there from creation or whether you're right, there's a reason it's there and I don't think it matters much either way or makes/breaks either argument.

Early on in any area of study there is a lot of room for error in the facts gathered, the interpretation of them and the construction of a theory to explain them. However, as more and more effort is put into following the facts uncovered and more work is put into derviving and explanation from those facts it gets harder and harder to find room for a large error. The hunt for facts and tests go on to keep reducint the chance for error.At this point in the understanding of the physics of the sun (and many other topics discussed in this forum) there is very little room left for a lot of error. Certainly it would be very surprising if the error was in the direction of a 6,000 year old earth or anything like that.If you think there is a misinterpretation then you have to show what a better interpretation is. All you've done so far is say that God has constructed things so that the most reasonable conclusion that can be obtained by looking at the facts and doing tests on them gives a very wrong answer. In fact, God would have had to work very hard to make this wrong answer stand up so well. I see no other interpretation other than God did this deliberately.The only other choice you might have is a "I don't know. God is mysterious". In which case you know nothing at all since you already reject science as a way of knowing and, with that, would be rejecting God as a way of knowing since He is a complete mystery.

The reason it (or all of the universe) is here may well come from the mind of God. That isn't a settled question yet one way or the other.The details of how it got there do break one argument. There is no reasonable conclusion that we can draw with present knowledge about the sun other than it is old, billions of years old.You have offered no counter to this other than "There is a misinterpretation" but you do not describe the nature of the current interpretation (you don't know much about it) or what is wrong with it or what alternative you would offer (other than God fooled everyone).

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If you think there is a misinterpretation then you have to show what a better interpretation is.

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I told you what is, imo, the better interpetation, i.e. that God made it already heated up with all it has including stuff going on within it to make it work for earth as it is and to make it do all this, it happens to look old on the basis of science dating, but it was made about 6000 years ago so it's not actually old as science is interpreting.Science wasn't expecting the latest ongoing intensity of sun activity, were they? That goes to show they all don't have it all down pat with these suprises arising unexpectedly. What else don't they know that only God knows???? The Bible says the earth's goin to get mighty hot, making it oh, so uncomfortable for man soon in these 'latter days when the 4th wrath bowl is poured out.' See Revelation 16:8,9

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And the fourth poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat: and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues; and they repented not to give him glory.

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Now folks, don't blame God for bein mean. See here, you who blaspheme God'v got him riled up with some of the blasphemy some of you're spewin out here in town. Your types are to be blamed for the coming woes upon earth. I won't mention names. You all know who you are. Zephaniah 2:2

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Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of Jehovah come upon you, before the day of Jehovah's anger come upon you. Seek you Jehovah, all you meek of the earth, that have kept his ordinances; seek rightiousness, seek meekness: it may be you will be hid in the day of Jehovah's anger.

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[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 11-28-2003]

Buz, you have managed to miss the point that the sun does NOT have to look old to work. It is not a "happens to look old" it is a "made to look old in ways which are unnessary to the working of it".If you disagree with the physics of the situation then you will have to find one of your creation scientists who can show what is wrong with the understanding of the physics. If you can't put up then you know what you have to do.It appears you are now saying the current sunspot activity is the hand of God at work and a sign of "the end"? That is incredible! And when the sun quiets again you will have some sort of new made up excuse.Do you think that the increased sunspot activity indicates the sun is getting hotter? Let's see what Eta has to say about that. Ok?You do know that the sunspot cycle is expected as well don't you? But it is a very variable thing and the intensity of any cycle is not currently predictable.Ooh, ooh, God's wrath! Buz, you do not talk for God. Whatever one believes it is easy to understand that for you to think you do is enormously arrogant. You do NOT call down the lightening bolts. You do not know the mind of God. You are not qualified to judge.

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You have offered no counter to this other than "There is a misinterpretation" but you do not describe the nature of the current interpretation (you don't know much about it) or what is wrong with it or what alternative you would offer (other than God fooled everyone).

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I believe the point that buzzsaw is attempting to get across is that science is perpetually outdating itself. To claim that there is LITTLE room for error is scientifically incorrect given the fact that the universe is infinite, and historically, science and its "empirical" evidence has contradicted itself. (A current example of this is Einstein's theory of General Relativity and the properties of Quantum Physics) Whereas a belief in a Creator not bound by time or space is much more sensical than putting too much faith in modern science. Just my two cents.Apollyon.

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Ooh, ooh, God's wrath! Buz, you do not talk for God. Whatever one believes it is easy to understand that for you to think you do is enormously arrogant. You do NOT call down the lightening bolts. You do not know the mind of God. You are not qualified to judge.

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Buz is simply relaying God's warnings to humanity found in the Good Book. Don't shoot the messenger!

Buz thinks he knows what God will consider to be a problem. Learning from the information that is available to us when looking at God's handiwork and useing our minds may be what is acceptable to Him. Buz, may be the one who will suffer for his arrogance in trying to say how God must have done things.Theologians may also say that God is putting that written by the hand of man (the Bible) up as an object of worship is a bit of an iffy position to take.When pressed for details many Christians decide that God is unknowable by our puny minds. Buz seems to think that he knows God.

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Buz thinks he knows what God will consider to be a problem. Learning from the information that is available to us when looking at God's handiwork and useing our minds may be what is acceptable to Him. Buz, may be the one who will suffer for his arrogance in trying to say how God must have done things.
Theologians may also say that God is putting that written by the hand of man (the Bible) up as an object of worship is a bit of an iffy position to take.

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When pressed for details many Christians decide that God is unknowable by our puny minds. Buz seems to think that he knows God.

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The more you read of what God's spirit has inspired the Biblical writers to say about God, the more you get to know God. I've been in the book daily for 58 years now and communed with him in prayer, etc, for as long. You get to know who you hang out with. I read where he gets angry. I read his prophecies. I read of his coming judgement. I warn you as a friend. "Better are the wounds of a friend than the kisses of an enemy" said King Solomon. This's not arrogancy. Arrogancy is thinking you know everything about this huge ball of fire 93 million miles away there is to know and perzackly how the universe was and looked billions of years ago, all the while blaspheming the Christian/Jew god, Jehovah. That's what real arrogancy is, Ned, even if you don't believe in this god. I'm not saying you blaspheme God, but some here in town do. It's one thing to question his existence, etc and another to blaspheme him. Sometimes the line between the two gets a bit obscure.