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Author | Topic: A young sun - a response | |||||||||||||||||||||||
NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: |
But since the sun can work fine WITHOUT the appearance of age why would He make it look like it is old? He certainly had to do somethings so it supplied light at the right time but He did NOT have to make it look precisely right to look old. Why did He?
But Buz, why are you even bothering to ask? I thought you were on "our" side on this. You think that the earth and sun are old, much older than 6,000 years. [This message has been edited by NosyNed, 11-26-2003]
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Itachi Uchiha Member (Idle past 5646 days) Posts: 272 From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco Joined: |
The sun: our special star
by Jonathan Sarfati The sun this hot, bright ball of plasma dominates the daytime sky, and is by far the most massive object in our solar system. It provides heat and light to earth, and as we will see, it is no ordinary star. The sun s originAccording to God s Word, the Bible, the sun did not always light the earth. It wasn t made till Day 4 of Creation Week, while the earth was created on Day 1. This refutes ideas like God used evolution and God created over billions of years , because they all assert that the sun arose before the earth.1 For the first three days of existence, the earth was lit by the light created on Day 1 (Genesis 1:3), while the day/night cycle was caused by the earth s rotation relative to this directional light source. Then according to Genesis 1:14 19: And God said, Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to divide between the day and the night. And let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years, and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth. And it was so. And God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day and the smaller light to rule the night, and the stars also. And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night; and to divide between the light and the darkness. And God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. And in the New Jerusalem, there will also be no need for the sun, because God will provide the light once again (Revelation 21:23). But meanwhile, we can appreciate the wonder of the star God has provided for us. How is the sun special?nti-theists are fond of dismissing the sun as a run-of-the-mill star in a not-too-special place in a galactic spiral arm. It is true that many stars are far bigger and brighter than the sun. However, saying that bigger stars are more important is as illogical as saying that a 7 foot man is more important than a 5 foot woman. Recent research has called the sun exceptional .2 Our sun is among the top 10% (by mass) of stars in its neighbourhood.2 It is actually an ideal size to support life on earth. There would be little point in having a red supergiant star like Betelgeuse, because it is so huge that it would engulf all the inner planets! Nor would we want a star like the blue-white supergiant Rigel, 25,000 times as bright as the sun, and emitting too much high-frequency radiation. Conversely, a star much smaller than our sun would be too faint to support life, unless the planet were so close to the star that there would be dangerous gravitational tides. The sun is in an ideal environment. It is a single star most stars exist in multiple-star systems. A planet in such a system would suffer extreme temperature variations. The sun s position in our spiral Milky Way Galaxy is also ideal. Its orbit is fairly circular, meaning that it won t go too near the inner galaxy where supernovae, extremely energetic star explosions, are more common.2 It also orbits almost parallel to the galactic plane otherwise, crossing this plane would be very disruptive.2 Furthermore, the sun is at an ideal distance from the galactic centre, called the co-rotation radius. Only here does a star s orbital speed match that of the spiral arms otherwise the sun would cross the arms too often and be exposed to supernovae.2 Our sun is a powerful object, often throwing out flares, and every few years (usually around sunspot maximum Sunspots, Galileo and heliocentrism), more violent ejections called coronal mass ejections (see photo, left). They cause huge electric currents in earth s upper atmosphere and disrupt power grids and satellites. In 1989, one disabled a power grid in northern Quebec. But the sun turns out to be an exceptionally stable 3 star. Three astronomers recently studied single stars of the same size, brightness and composition of the sun. Almost all of them erupt about once a century in superflares 100 to 100 million times more powerful than the one that blacked out Quebec. If the sun were to erupt in such a superflare, it would destroy earth s ozone layer, with catastrophic results for life.4 How does the sun shine?In 1939, Hans Bethe proposed that the sun and other stars are powered by nuclear fusion this theory earned him the 1967 Nobel Prize for Physics.5 In fusion, extremely fast-moving hydrogen nuclei join to form helium this requires temperatures of millions of degrees. Some mass is lost and converted into a huge amount of energy as per Einstein s famous formula E = mc2.6 Thus the sun would be essentially a gigantic hydrogen bomb.7 If fusion were totally responsible for the sun s huge power output of 3.86 x 1026 watts, four million tonnes of matter would be converted every second into energy this is huge, but negligible compared to the sun s enormous total mass. That fusion is responsible for at least part of the sun s energy output is supported by the sun s huge flux of neutrinos, ghostly particles that can usually pass through light-years thicknesses of matter untouched.8 However, if nuclear fusion were the sole source of power, then we would expect to observe three times more neutrinos than we do.9 This shortfall has been tentatively explained by the idea that neutrinos alternate between three types. This would require that they have mass, although previously they were universally regarded as massless. Alternatively, two-thirds of the sun s energy could be provided by gravitational collapse, through conversion of gravitational potential energy to heat and light as the sun s gases collapse inwards. This theory was proposed by the great physicist Hermann von Helmholtz (1821 1894). It was the chief theory until the prominence of Darwinism, which could not tolerate that it would put an upper limit on the sun s age at 22 million years far too short for evolution. Observations suggesting the sun is shrinking at a rate of at least 0.02 seconds of arc per century, give some support to the notion.10 This would be ample for collapse to be a significant energy source. But the shrinkage is controversial, even among creationists. In any case, since nuclear fusion is at least a partial source of energy, Helmholtz s age limit cannot be strictly applied. Sun facts23 24Mean distance from earth 149,600,000 km or 92,937,000 miles (1 astronomical unit (AU)) Diameter1,392,000 km or 864,950 miles (109 x earth) Mass1.99 x 1030 kg (330,000 x earth) Mean density1.41 g/cm3 (1/4 earth) Temperature5,470 C (9,880 F) surface, 14,000,000 C (25,000,000 F) core Power output3.86 x 1026 watts Escape velocity at surface618 km/sec or 384 miles/sec (55 x earth) Rotational period (days)26.9 (equator), 27.3 (sunspot zone, 16N), 31.1 (pole), all synodical25 [Note added 30 May 2002: A paper by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein, and James Riordon in The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News 586, 24 April 2002, seems to provide conclusive evidence for neutrino oscillation. Previously, detectors were able to pick up only electron neutrinos. But this new experiment at the Sudbury Neutrino Observatory (SNO) were able to detect the missing neutrino flavours, the mu and tau neutrinos that undergo neutral current reactions. This is consistent with other lines of evidence that fusion is the primary source of energy, e.g. standard physical models indicate that the core temperature is high enough for fusion. This means that neutrinos must have a very tiny rest mass after all experimental data must take precedence over the theories of particle physicists that neutrinos have zero rest mass. Therefore creationists should no longer invoke the missing neutrino problem to deny that fusion is the primary source of energy for the sun. So it cannot be used as a young-age indicator nor an old-age indicator for that matter.26] However, the solar astronomer John Eddy commented: I suspect & that the sun is 4.5 billion years old. However, given some new and unexpected results to the contrary, and some time for some frantic recalculations and theoretical readjustment, I suspect that we could live with Bishop Ussher s value for the age of the earth and sun [about 6,000 years]. I don t think there is much in the way of observational evidence to conflict with that. 11 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Problems with evolutionary theories of the sunEvolutionists believe that the solar system formed from a cloud of dust and gas 4.5 billion years ago. This nebular hypothesis has many problems. One authority summarized: The clouds are too hot, too magnetic, and they rotate too rapidly. 12 One major problem can be shown by accomplished skaters spinning on ice. As skaters pull their arms in, they spin faster. This effect is due to what physicists call the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum. Angular momentum = mass x velocity x distance from the centre of mass, and always stays constant in an isolated system. When the skaters pull their arms in, the distance from the centre decreases, so they spin faster or else angular momentum would not stay constant. In the formation of our sun from a nebula in space, the same effect would have occurred as the gases allegedly contracted into the centre to form the sun. This would have caused the sun to spin very rapidly. Actually, our sun spins very slowly, while the planets move very rapidly around the sun. In fact, although the sun has over 99% of the mass of the solar system, it has only 2% of the angular momentum. This pattern is directly opposite to the pattern predicted for the nebular hypothesis. Evolutionists have tried to solve this problem, but a well-known solar-system scientist, Dr Stuart Ross Taylor, has said in a recent book, The ultimate origin of the solar system s angular momentum remains obscure. 13 Another problem with the nebular hypothesis is the formation of the gaseous planets. According to this theory, as the gas pulled together into the planets, the young sun would have passed through what is called the T-Tauri phase. In this phase, the sun would have given off an intense solar wind, far more intense than at present. This solar wind would have driven excess gas and dust out of the still-forming solar system and thus there would no longer have been enough of the light gases left to form Jupiter and the other three giant gas planets. This would have left these four gas planets smaller than we find them today.14 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sunspots, Galileo and heliocentrismSunspots look like dark patches on the sun. They can be seen to move, and analyzing them shows that different parts of the sun rotate at different rates, unlike a solid body. Sunspots come and go in cycles of about 11.2 years. Galileo Galilei (1564 1642) systematically studied sunspots in 1611 and realised that they upset the prevailing Aristotelian/Ptolemaic view that the heavenly bodies were perfect spheres .15 Today we realize that sunspots are vortices of gas on the sun s surface, and appear dark because they are several thousand degrees cooler. Analysis of their light spectra shows that the sun s magnetic field is especially strong in sunspots.16 Galileo supported the theory of Nicolaus Copernicus (1473 1543) that the earth and other planets move around the sun. Anti-Christian propagandists make much of the conflict between Galileo and the Church, or religion vs science. But Galileo thought that the much simpler mathematics of the Copernican system compared to the unwieldy Ptolemaic system would best reflect God s mathematical simplicity (i.e. God is not composed of parts but is Triune). The New Encyclopdia Britannica identifies Galileo s main opponents as the scientific establishment: The Aristotelian professors, seeing their vested interests threatened, united against him. They strove to cast suspicion on him in the eyes of the ecclesiastical authorities because of [alleged] contradictions between the Copernican theory and Scriptures. 17 Both sides should have realised that all movement must be described in relation to something else a reference frame and from a descriptive point of view, all reference frames are equally valid. The Bible writers used the earth as a convenient reference frame, as do modern astronomers talking about sunset ; speed limit signs also depend on the earth as a reference frame. Using the sun (or the centre of mass of the solar system) is the most convenient for discussing planetary motions.18,19 Return to text. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Eclipse!On 11 August 1999, large numbers of people from England to India were fortunate to behold the awesome sight of a total eclipse of the sun. This is possible because the moon is almost exactly the same angular size (half a degree) in the sky as the sun it is both 400 times smaller and 400 times closer than the sun. This looks like design. The moon is gradually receding from the earth at 4 cm (1 inches) per year. If this had really been going on for billions of years, and mankind had been around for a tiny fraction of that time, the chance of mankind living at a time so they could observe this precise size match-up would be remote. (Actually, this recession puts an upper limit on the age of the earth/moon system at far less than the assumed 4.5 billion years20). During a total eclipse, the sun s outer atmosphere, the corona, is visible. This comprises extremely thin ionised gas, which is extremely hot. At 2 million C (3.6 million F), it is about 350 times as hot as the sun s surface. This has been a mystery, because heat normally flows from hot objects to cooler ones. A promising theory (which still needs work) involves the sun s strong magnetic field reconnection of magnetic flux lines could release large amounts of energy into the corona.21,22 This could have applications in fusion power research.21 [Note added 15 Nov 2000: recent photographs show that the coronal loops comprise several finer loops, and that they are heated strongly at the base. A new model has the gas, mainly ionized iron, travelling upwards for 400,000 km at 100 km/sec then cooling as it crashes back down on the sun s surface.27] What do you think of this one guys
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
quote: Because to us creationists, he made what we see and what we see is imo, Biblically speaking not old but scientifically appears to be old. Nobody knows the age of the earth by the Bible, but according to the Bible it appears the sun and moon are about as old as creatures or 6000 years old. I've never said that I believe the sun is old, but that the earth could be old as nobody knows how long days one, two, three and even four were and I include day four as we aren't told how long the day was before the sun and moon were finished. Does this help any, Ned, to explain what I'm trying to get across?
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Jazzlover, I often don't read these real long posts, but yours was worth the time and quite informative. Thanks.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
quote: Thanks Mike. You make my point that scientifically, the sun would have to be doing within it what would make it appear to be old. No mistake on God's part though in this, imo, as like Adam and the animals he likely created it with appearance of age to make it do for the earth at creation what it is doing right now, sustaining life.
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roxrkool Member (Idle past 1020 days) Posts: 1497 From: Nevada Joined: |
Not sure, but I think I would be skeptical of anything this Ph.D. Chemist has to say on solar evolution. I'm interested to read what a real expert has to say about this article.
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: |
No, Buz, what Mike tells you is there would be some things that would have to be set up to get the sun to be "working" right but there are a bunch more that aren't 'necessary'.
Therefore I see only two conclusions:1) The sun is as old as we measure through a bunch of different means. 2) God choose to add unnecessary extras to make it look old. Then He added a bunch of other things on earth and in the universe to make everything match up. Since others would agree that the God you worship is not a deciever then only the first choice is viable.
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Eta_Carinae Member (Idle past 4405 days) Posts: 547 From: US Joined: |
Jonathan Sarfati is a fraudulent idiot, period.
He is an ex-chemist (I believe he is a paid AIG staff member now) and wanna be astrophysicist. I said fraudulent above because check out his 'supernova remnant' nonsense. It's on talk origins somewhere. That long post earlier in this thread with a Safarti article is full of so much crap I hardly no where to begin. (I guess the beginning would be a good place - LOL).
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 765 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
Yeah, Eta - Sarfati's screed still has "one-third as many neutrinos" as one of its "points." His God of the Gaps is shrinking fast....
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
quote: But the god of the Bible who I worship says it's young so I have to go with him creating it as he did many other things, with the appearace of age. Likely, all of the rocks which he created in the beginning whenever he created the earth had appearance of age, wouldn't they, for example? This's how creation works. Most Biblical creationists don't see God evolving things slowly into existence. It was as easy for him to make a planet as it was for Jesus to raise Lazarus from the dead or restore the ear to a soldier.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
quote: For example?
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: |
Helium.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
What about the helium? How does that nullify anything I've said?
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: |
I didn't go into details because it was in previous posts.
The sun could burn just fine if it was all hydrogen. The only reason there is helium is because of the primordial helium (from the big bang) and the helium produced by over 4 Gyrs of hydrogen fusion. I don't think it nullifies anything that you have said. You have agreed that the earth (and I presume) sun are billions of years old haven't you. This is only an argument with younger earthers not someone who is capable of figuring out that the idea of a young earth is not supportable anymore. For them the helium is only there if God wants to fool us.
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docpotato Member (Idle past 5078 days) Posts: 334 From: Portland, OR Joined: |
Brad,
I have not confused Method and Principle. In the case of ICR, their principles define their methods. If their principles are to believe the bible first, no matter what, then they are suspect. That IS a blight to this potato. Doc
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