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Author | Topic: Straightforward, hard-to-answer-questions about the Bible/Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||
hERICtic Member (Idle past 4547 days) Posts: 371 Joined: |
Phage0070 writes: Funny you should bring that up. Are you sure that the Jews actually *were* enslaved by the Egyptians? So far as I know that story only appears in the Bible and there is absolutely no corroborating evidence in the writings or archaeological leavings of any other civilization at the time, Egyptian or otherwise. What do you think is more likely; that Egyptians enslaved enough Jews to equal their own total population and yet never mentioned their existence, exodus, or subsequent wandering (or anyone else for that matter)... or that it is a fiction? Great point. But I am assuming that Artemis is a Christian and fully accepting that the stories are true. Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4259 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
hERICtic writes: I am using "slavery" as per described in the OT.Were those "taken" allowed to leave or where they forced to stay and work? Were the Hebrews slaves of the Egyptians? Did they have a choice in the matter? Did women "taken" as spoils of war have a choice?
You are asking questions that are not specific, nor that answerable, are they rhtorical?but I will bite anyway. Those taken may have been allowed to leave eventually, often times indetered servitude and slavery were equated to be the same thing, its hard to say as it is not very clear. I think the hebrews more than likey were slaves in some form of the Egyptians, though contrary to popular presentation slaves could not have built the great pyramids, that was obviously completed by extremely skilled labor. Did women taken have a choice? Probably not, but thier other option was probably starving to death, I am unsure that they may have wanted it another way. Native Americans used this method as well, and intime the captured were integrated into the tribe as fully functioning memebers. You have still failed to answer my question of what does this OT stuff have to do with Jesus, and him dying for our sins.
hERICtic writes: Great point. But I am assuming that Artemis is a Christian and fully accepting that the stories are true.
Well I am Roman Catholic. Its hard to admit christian anymore with what I know about these protestant philosophies. Sola scriptura is not part of my belief if that what you are assuming.
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
I think you replied to the wrong message since you don't quote my post anywhere, but I will attempt to reply in the vein of your inquiry.
Artemis Entreri writes: You are asking questions that are not specific, nor that answerable, are they rhtorical? Most likely, considering they are most likely about fictional events.
Artemis Entreri writes: Those taken may have been allowed to leave eventually, often times indetered servitude and slavery were equated to be the same thing, its hard to say as it is not very clear. Does it matter? I would argue that slavery for any period of time is still slavery; rape for any period of time is still rape. Obviously slavery or rape for shorter periods of time is better, but the point still stands. If God orders rape or slavery, for any period of time, he is responsible for those acts.
Artemis Entreri writes: I think the hebrews more than likey were slaves in some form of the Egyptians, though contrary to popular presentation slaves could not have built the great pyramids, that was obviously completed by extremely skilled labor. Why do you think they were slaves in some form? What evidence do you have in support of this belief?
Artemis Entreri writes: Did women taken have a choice? Probably not, but thier other option was probably starving to death,... Thats what happens when you kill all the males, not just those involved in battle or even capable of warfare. Societies can suffer through great losses in war but the purposeful genocide of killing all men, no matter their age, is intentionally directed at destroying the society itself. God ordering such actions makes him responsible for the Catch 22 of starvation or rape/slavery. An omnipotent entity cannot avoid responsibility.
Artemis Entreri writes: You have still failed to answer my question of what does this OT stuff have to do with Jesus, and him dying for our sins. Everything! Jesus is only important because he fulfills prophecies in the Old Testament; "Christ" is a title, not a name. Jesus is only important because he is the son and also the same being as the deity introduced in the Old Testament; if we remove the OT, nobody has any idea what he means when he claims to be the "son of God". Jesus's death is only significant because it forgives violations of the laws of a deity introduced in the Old Testament; what are sins if that background doesn't exist? The Old Testament stuff is crucial to the story of Jesus, especially because Jesus is claimed to be the same entity as God to some extent. If the OT God supports slavery, so does Jesus. If the OT God supports rape, so does Jesus. If the Old Testament God is a bloodthirsty, rage-filled, despicable monster of a deity who cares only for the subservience of a single tribe of humans and even less for everyone else... so is Jesus.
Artemis Entreri writes: Well I am Roman Catholic. Dang, I'm sorry. Say, do you consider the Pope as being infallible? Thats always good for a laugh.
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4259 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
Phage0070 writes:
oops. I totally did, i meant to respond to herictic. blonde moment.
I think you replied to the wrong message since you don't quote my post anywhere, but I will attempt to reply in the vein of your inquiry. If God orders rape or slavery, for any period of time, he is responsible for those acts.
If God's followers have free will then God is free from blame as his followers have the option to disobey him as they do through sin every hour of every day.
Why do you think they were slaves in some form? What evidence do you have in support of this belief?
I like the Moses story. Evidence is unesscessary for belief.
quote: An omnipotent entity cannot avoid responsibility.
Free will is the avoidance to resposibility. You are not the 1st nor tha last to try and catch the All Mighty, in something like that. This debate has been going on for 1500+ years.
If the Old Testament God is a bloodthirsty, rage-filled, despicable monster of a deity who cares only for the subservience of a single tribe of humans and even less for everyone else... so is Jesus.
Nope. That is incorrect.
Say, do you consider the Pope as being infallible? Thats always good for a laugh.
Its obvious that one you either cannot comprehend the infallible doctrine, or you are not being serious, and just try to make a joke, so I'll plead the 5th on this one.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
If the Old Testament God is a bloodthirsty, rage-filled, despicable monster of a deity who cares only for the subservience of a single tribe of humans and even less for everyone else... so is Jesus.
Nope. That is incorrect. You are not a trinitarian? You might want to try to explain why you think the poster is incorrect, rather than just make an unevidenced statement. Just a suggestion. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4259 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
I am not an apologetic, i was merely stating my beliefs.
I don't need evidence, but I will pray that you can find whatever you need, for your own beliefs.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Please don't offend me by praying to your sky god for me. I neither want it or need it.
You religious people amaze me at your insistence on claiming others are wrong, but you feel you have no need to offer an explanation or a reason a person is wrong.It must be a heavy weight knowing all the secrets of life and existence. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4259 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
God is not in the sky.
I already explained that it is not knowledge but belief, I am sorry you cannot understand the difference, and I must rephrase it over and over again. I don't kow what your agenda is, but your strawmen are fairly weak.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
What is the strawman? All I want you to do is to explain your justification for telling someone they are wrong and then feeling you do not have to explain why you claim they are wrong.
You seem to expect others to jsut accept what you say without question. You think your belief and faith gives you some sort of insight that we should all accept unquestioningly. You ahve not given any reasoning for claiming someone is wrong all you said was they are wrong. Even apologetics gives a reason. Usually lame reasons but reason nontheless. Unless you are willing to back up your statements with reason no one here is going to take you seriously Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4259 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
What is the strawman
just about everything you say that I am saying, when I am saying nothing of the sort. you are choosing what you want me to say so that you can argue against my position (that you just made up). Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought that was a strawman.
You seem to expect others to jsut accept what you say without question. finally you add a "seem" to your thoughts rather than straight up telling me my position, like in your previous posts today. but no i do not.
You think your belief and faith gives you some sort of insight that we should all accept unquestioningly.
oh dangit there you go again. How much straw do you have over there in Wisconsin? I never said anything of the sort, and explained myself twice already, lulz.
You ahve not given any reasoning for claiming someone is wrong all you said was they are wrong. I would prefer to answer Phage0070, on my reasons and claims, because so far I can tell that you will just twist anything that I say into what you want me to be saying.
Even apologetics gives a reason.
I am not an apologetic (but you would know this if you read my earlier post).
Usually lame reasons but reason nontheless.
are they as lame as your strawmen?
Unless you are willing to back up your statements with reason no one here is going to take you seriously
LULZ, like I take you and your strawmanning seriously?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
If the Old Testament God is a bloodthirsty, rage-filled, despicable monster of a deity who cares only for the subservience of a single tribe of humans and even less for everyone else... so is Jesus.
Nope. That is incorrect. Then I asked for reasoning. Which you continue to refuse to do. I still do not see the strawman. Oh well I guess I have to realize that you will just expect others take you beliefs unquestioningly. I still want to know how you can separate Jesus from the actions of the cruel Old Testament mountain god. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Please don't offend me by praying to your sky god for me. I neither want it or need it. Why is that offensive?
You religious people amaze me at your insistence on claiming others are wrong, but you feel you have no need to offer an explanation or a reason a person is wrong. That probably describes most people, not just the religious. "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Artie,
Food for thought: If you want to share the love of God, you might want to stop being condescending. Tends to invalidate your testimony and push people further away. "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Please don't offend me by praying to your sky god for me. I neither want it or need it. Why is that offensive? Because it is a condescending self-righteous thing to say. Ask any of the agnostics and atheists on this board for an explanation or a reason for their statements and most will gladly provide one. It is only the self righteous religious who feel they do not have to justify their statements. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
Artemis Entreri writes: If God's followers have free will then God is free from blame as his followers have the option to disobey him as they do through sin every hour of every day. The biblical God has shown a clear policy of punishing behavior against his will regardless of the morality or intentions behind those actions. Ordering unethical actions puts believers between a rock and a hard place; they either obey God and behave unethically, or disobey God and be punished for sinful actions. Do you think God will reward people for obeying his unethical orders?
Artemis Entreri writes: I like the Moses story. Evidence is unesscessary for belief. If I can spin you a more attractive story than that of Moses, would you believe it considering evidence is unnecessary? Also, can you name another area of your life which you find evidence unnecessary for belief other than religious faith?
Artemis Entreri writes: Free will is the avoidance to resposibility. A paraplegic's free will to walk is not impaired, their ability to walk is impaired. My free will to desire at-will flight like Superman is not restricted, my ability to do so is restricted. Similarly if I observed a man raping a woman, and I had the means at my disposal to stop him, I would not be impairing the free will of the rapist. I would however be impairing his ability to perform that crime. For me to stand by and do nothing makes me to some extent morally culpable in that rape. In this same way, a god that is all-powerful would certainly have the ability to restrict the ability of humans to perform evil acts against others without restricting their free will. Having this ability places that god firmly in the moral picture with every evil action committed.
Artemis Entreri writes: Nope. That is incorrect. Please elaborate. Do you not consider them part of the same entity, or that they are separate faces which don't share the same traits?
Artemis Entreri writes: Its obvious that one you either cannot comprehend the infallible doctrine, or you are not being serious, and just try to make a joke, so I'll plead the 5th on this one. Here is the punchline: If God never changes his mind but upholds the edicts of the Pope in heaven, what happens when a Pope changes his mind, or different Pope's contradict each other?
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