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Author
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Topic: Free Will and Biblical Prophecy: Are They Mutually Exclusive?
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 7 of 227 (494403)
01-15-2009 6:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
01-14-2009 6:48 PM
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Re: Free Will
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes: If free-will is not the ability to choose between alternate future outcomes what is it? Freewill is having the opportunity to choose. The first man in the garden had the opportunity to choose to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He exercised that option. You don't have that option.
Straggler writes: In the Sacrifice thread I asked whether or not Jesus had free-will regarding his crucifixion. Yes. The decision was made before the heaven and the earth was created and the first man was formed from the dust of the ground. God not being limited as we are could see the end from the beginning and everything in between just as He still does today. He knew every decision every man was going to make and still made man. He knew you was going to ask this question and He knew I was going to try to answer it. So in answer to your question did Jesus have free will. Yes Jesus had free will and He exercised His choice before man was formed from the dust of the earth. That is what makes it so wonderful to me. He knew every mistake I would ever make, every time I would disobey Him and He was still willing to suffer separation from God the Father and God the Holy Spirit so I would not have to. My friend laid down His life for me. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Straggler, posted 01-14-2009 6:48 PM | | Straggler has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 8 by Straggler, posted 01-15-2009 7:00 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 9 of 227 (494412)
01-15-2009 8:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by Straggler
01-15-2009 7:00 PM
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Re: Free Will
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes: At what point in his life did Jesus make the decision to be crucified? From Message 7:
quote:
The decision was made before the heaven and the earth was created and the first man was formed from the dust of the ground.
Straggler writes: At what point in the bible is he notified of his fate and what is his reaction You act like Jesus was a mortal man. He was not He was God in the flesh. He came into the world for the purpose of paying my sin debt that was placed upon me by my ancestor the first man when he chose to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And anyone else that would accept the offer of a full free pardon. As I first posted the decision was made before the world was created. Jesus chose before man was every formed from the dust of the earth to be the substitute for whosoever will.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; — the plural God. God the Father, God in the flesh Jesus, and God the Holy Spirit. Chose to adopt everyone as children who would receive the free gift of a full pardon through the sacrifice of God in the flesh Jesus, receiving the forgiveness of sins through His blood. They pre-determined to do this before creating the universe, earth, and mankind.
Straggler writes: Can man exert his freewill such that future biblical prophecies can be avoided? No prophecy of God will not come to pass. God's prophecies are history told in advance. He saw them happen.
Straggler writes: If the future is known with absolute certainty how can we have the "opportunity to choose"? If every choice that was ever made is known in advance how does that keep you from choosing. You chose but that choice was known in advance. Now if the one that knew what your choice was, changed the outcome of your choice, then you would not have free will. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by Straggler, posted 01-15-2009 7:00 PM | | Straggler has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 13 of 227 (494538)
01-16-2009 6:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 12 by Stile
01-16-2009 11:15 AM
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Re: God's Smart
Hi Stile,
Stile writes: I have shown that the above definitions can exist along with an immutable prophecy. I certainly think it's difficult since the immutable prophecy would be required to exactly match the choice the being would make without the immutable prophecy in place. I just don't think that such a problem is that big of a deal for an all-knowing, all-powerful, a-temporal God. I think you have it nailed down pretty close. The problem everybody has with a prophecy given by God is that they limit God to time as we are limited. God can see the beginning of the universe and the end of the universe at the same time. We say but that is billions of years. To us it is billions of years but to God it is all right now. He views the beginning and the end and everything in between all the time. So anything that God says is going to happen He see's it happening when He speakes it. To Him it is history even if it is billions of years in the future to us. Its kinda like when you have seen a movie and then go back the second time with someone and you keep spoiling the movie for them because you keep telling them what is going to happen next. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by Stile, posted 01-16-2009 11:15 AM | | Stile has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 22 of 227 (494649)
01-17-2009 12:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 21 by Blue Jay
01-17-2009 12:33 PM
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Re: God's Smart
Hi jay,
Mantis writes: What is to stop God from manipulating a person’s desires such that they can only want the future that He has already immutably decreed? Your definition of "free will" includes such a scenario. Are you saying that because God is able to see what you are going to do tomorrow that He controls you and makes you do it? Keep in mind God has no tomorrow. He only has now. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 21 by Blue Jay, posted 01-17-2009 12:33 PM | | Blue Jay has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 23 by Blue Jay, posted 01-17-2009 12:56 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 24 of 227 (494651)
01-17-2009 1:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 23 by Blue Jay
01-17-2009 12:56 PM
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Re: God's Smart
Hi jay,
Mantis writes: I'm saying that, if we used Stile's definition of "free will," God could do that while still claiming that we have free will. Well as a child of God's I will testify that He will not change your mind and He will not make you do anything. I wish that He would because He could have kept me from making a lot of mistakes if He had. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by Blue Jay, posted 01-17-2009 12:56 PM | | Blue Jay has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 27 by Blue Jay, posted 01-17-2009 4:29 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 28 of 227 (494670)
01-17-2009 5:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 27 by Blue Jay
01-17-2009 4:29 PM
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Re: God's Smart
Hi jay,
Mantis writes: Unfortunately, I don't hold a lot of optimism for your assertion, because I haven't yet been (re)convinced that a God with the ability to prophesy inerrantly leaves any room for personal choice. So are you saying God writes the script and everyone has to follow the script regardless of what they want to do? That is pretty much what my great aunt used to say. She was a pastor of a church that believed whatever was going to be would be it didn't make any difference what we did. You were born to go to heaven or hell and no amount of evangelizing, preaching or praying would ever change anybody. So why bother. I think that was one of Calvin's doctrines. It is not found in the Bible. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 27 by Blue Jay, posted 01-17-2009 4:29 PM | | Blue Jay has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 32 by Blue Jay, posted 01-17-2009 8:38 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 43 of 227 (494788)
01-18-2009 4:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 38 by Straggler
01-18-2009 9:58 AM
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Re: Free Will
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes: So whilst on Earth Jesus remained eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, infallible etc. etc. etc. etc. He was God, limited only by whatever limitations He put on Himself.
Straggler writes: In short you are saying that he was "man" only in the most trivial and superficial of senses. Namely physically. The physical body Jesus had was limited just as our body is. It got tired and hungry. It felt pain just as we do. The Spirit was 100% God. The mind was 100% God.
Straggler writes: So are you saying that at one month old the baby Jesus was all knowing omniscience personified? Including knowing of his intended fate? He was always God in a flesh body.
Straggler writes: If not at what point in his life as a human did he become aware of this fate? Jesus was never a human. He was God in a human flesh body. Jesus, God in the flesh knew his fate before the universe and the earth was created. He exercised His free will to take on a body of flesh and come to earth and die to buy man back out of bodage to the devil which the first man sold him into when he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 38 by Straggler, posted 01-18-2009 9:58 AM | | Straggler has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 44 of 227 (494791)
01-18-2009 5:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 42 by Straggler
01-18-2009 12:50 PM
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Re: God's Smart
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes: I am not even disputing that an eternal God with an eternal perspective can know such things. That is not the issue. OK so God could know such things.
Straggler writes: The problem arises when the prophecy is revealed to the non-eternal agents of free-will (i.e. us) There is no such thing as a non-eternal being, or agent as you call man. But just who is the us you are talking about?
Straggler writes: If you know what you will decide to do as an immutable truth before you have even encountered the decision in question then you also know that you will be unable to make any alternative decisions at that time. The only things I know that I can't change are: I will die. I will face judgment. I will spend eternity in the new heaven and new earth with God. But why would I want to change any of them?
Straggler writes: The problem regarding freewill and prophecy is not related to what God knows. It is solely related to what those making decisions in real-time as we perceive it know about the limitations of their own future choices. Well the only two things you can't change is you will die and then face the judgment. There has never been an option for these. Anything else you can change.
Straggler writes: At what point in Jesus's life as a man could he have exerted his free-will and avoided crucifixion? As I said before Jesus was never a man. He was God in the flesh. You said "I am not even disputing that an eternal God with an eternal perspective can know such things." So why do you have a problem because God took on a flesh body and came to earth to die for the sins of mankind. Now as far as God in the flesh changing His mind, He could have struck everybody dead while on the cross and ended the entire project. But He chose to willingly give His life and suffer separation from God the Spirit and God the Father (mind) for 3 hours so I could spend eternity in heaven. And also anyone else who would believe in and trust God for salvation. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 42 by Straggler, posted 01-18-2009 12:50 PM | | Straggler has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 49 of 227 (494812)
01-18-2009 9:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 45 by Straggler
01-18-2009 5:23 PM
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Re: Free Will
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes: Are you serious? Does the bible actually support this view? Or are you making it up? John 10:10 Jesus said:
I and my Father are one. John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Straggler writes: So he was born in a human body fully cognisant of his fate and posessing all other knowledge derived from his eternal omniscience? Unless He limited Himself. But we are not told that He did.
Straggler writes: But that is hardly "walking the Earth as one of us" in any meaningful sense and, as far as I am aware, is totally unsupported by any scriptural source. Do you think God took on flesh and came to walk on earth as one of us? He came to die for the sins of the world.
12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. As Jesus contemplated His soon death on the cross He said, "for this cause came I unto this hour". So Jesus said HIs purpose for comming was to die. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by Straggler, posted 01-18-2009 5:23 PM | | Straggler has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 50 of 227 (494814)
01-18-2009 10:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 46 by Straggler
01-18-2009 5:45 PM
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Re: God's Smart
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes: Can man exert his freewill so as to avoid these prophecies coming true? Sure he could. But that is the wrong question to ask. The proper question to ask is, "will man change the prophecy? In another thread I have been debating with Rrhain about a prophecy concerning King Ahab. In I Kings chapter 22 King Ahab ask Jehoshaphat the king of Judah to go to war with him against Syria. Jehoshaphat ask him to inquire of the prophets. Ahab called for the prophets about 400 of them and they said go up. Jehoshaphat wanted a second opinion, so he asked is there any other prophet. Ahab said yes Micaiah but he hates me and will prophecy against me. Jehoshaphat requested Micaiah be sent for. The messenger who went for Micaiah told him all the other prophets had said go up and suggested he do the same. When asked by Ahab Micaiah said go up. Ahab asked Micaiah how many time he would have to ask him before he told him the truth of what God said. This was Micaiah's prophecy.
I Kings 22:17 And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master: let them return every man to his house in peace. He told Ahab he would die and the people would be scattered upon the hills and go home. Ahab went into a rant telling Jehoshaphat see I told you he would prophecy against me then he said a lot of other things. So they went up to battle but Ahab disguised himself not using his Kingly Apparel. Could Ahab have changed the prophecy? Yes. Did he change the prophecy? No. He went up to battle and died in battle and the people were scattered and went home. So to get the correct answers you have to ask the correct questions. God knows the decision man is going to make before the prophecy is made. Any excuse or reason you can come up with for man changing the prophecy will not affect God's prophecy as He knows the decisions that was made at the moment of decision. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 46 by Straggler, posted 01-18-2009 5:45 PM | | Straggler has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 55 of 227 (494848)
01-19-2009 9:28 AM
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Reply to: Message 51 by caldron68
01-18-2009 10:47 PM
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Re: Free Will
Hi caldron68,
cldron68 writes: No. If God exists and is omniscient, he would not have chosen a creation path that would lead to this requirement. You must be speaking for 'God caldron68' because you are not speaking for the God that I was referring too. God bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 51 by caldron68, posted 01-18-2009 10:47 PM | | caldron68 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 61 by caldron68, posted 01-19-2009 1:24 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 57 of 227 (494850)
01-19-2009 9:33 AM
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Reply to: Message 52 by caldron68
01-18-2009 11:11 PM
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Re: Free Will
Hi caldron68,
caldron68 writes: Really? Did God have a choice in the matter or not? Sure He did He could have let us all pay our own sin debt. But that means that no one would have an opportunity to escape everlasting punishment. I for one am glad He made the choice He did. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 52 by caldron68, posted 01-18-2009 11:11 PM | | caldron68 has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 70 of 227 (494882)
01-19-2009 3:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 62 by caldron68
01-19-2009 1:45 PM
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Re: Free Will
Hi caldron68,
caldron68 writes: But you're suggesting that he had no choice in the path that he created for man. Sure He had a choice. He could have programed everyone to do exactly what He wanted them to do. But there goes free will. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 62 by caldron68, posted 01-19-2009 1:45 PM | | caldron68 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 72 by caldron68, posted 01-19-2009 8:31 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 84 of 227 (495093)
01-20-2009 7:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 82 by Straggler
01-20-2009 6:26 PM
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Re: God's Smart
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes: He could not have done anything that would have contradicted that prophecy without making God a liar. Which is not possible. Ahab could have made any decision he wanted to make. But since God knew in advance what decision he was going to make He gave Micaiah the prophecy. God knowing something in advance that you are going to do does not make you do anything. You do whatever you want to do He just knows what that is.
Straggler writes: OK. But at what point after the prophecy had been made could Ahab have used his free-will to change the outcome without making God a liar? Ahab used his free will and made the decision he wanted to make. Nobody forced him to do anything. He had 400 prophets telling him God was with him. One guy didn't even get invited to the party but Jehoshaphat requested Micaiah be sent for. So yea Ahab was going to listen to this guy that he said didn't like him and would prophecy against him. Ahab chose to do what he wanted without interference from anyone.
Straggler writes: Do you see the problem here? The only problem I see is your thinker. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 82 by Straggler, posted 01-20-2009 6:26 PM | | Straggler has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 85 of 227 (495097)
01-20-2009 8:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 83 by Straggler
01-20-2009 6:59 PM
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Re: Free Will
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes: So Jesus was born omniscient and fully functioning as an eternity aware being, seeing all of time laid before him. He was like this from birth according to your analysis. Jesus never ceased to be God. As I said He could have limited himself but I don't see where He did. When He was 12 years old He spent 3 days confounding the Religious elite of that day with His knowledge.
Straggler writes: So did those who killed him or contributed to his death in any way also have free-will? Could they have chosen not to kill him? Sure they could have but they didn't. Pilate let the death penalty be carried out to keep from making the Pharisees mad. The Pharisees had been planning this moment for 3 years. What do you think it would have taken to change their minds.
Straggler writes: Do you see the problem here? Not with the Pharisees doing what they wanted to do. But I have located a problem. You keep saying "immutable prophecy". In an earlier message Message 44 I gave you three "immutable prophecies" concerning myself.
The only things I know that I can't change are: I will die. I will face judgment. I will spend eternity in the new heaven and new earth with God. The first 2 I had no control over as the first man made that choice for me when he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The third one became an immutable prophecy when I accepted the full free pardon God offered to all mankind. I can't change it if I wanted too. But why would I want to change it? I am not sure that there is any other immutable prophecy that exists. As I was thinking about this situation I remembered the story about Hezekiah. He was told by Isaiah to set his house in order for he was going to die. Hezekiah petitioned God and God gave him 15 more years. God Bless, Edited by ICANT, : spelling
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by Straggler, posted 01-20-2009 6:59 PM | | Straggler has replied |
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