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Author Topic:   The phrase "Evolution is a fact"
Beretta
Member (Idle past 5627 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 73 of 217 (489789)
11-30-2008 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Straggler
11-29-2008 1:52 PM


On what grounds
Hi Straggler,
Fine. So you agree that evolution is change in allele frequency over time. You just assert that there are limits to this change.
What is this limit? On what grounds do you conclude that this limit exists?
On the grounds of experimentation that only ever demonstrates negative mutational change and no increase in information content. How is it that we can demonstrate lots of negative informational changes but no increase in information ever? Until I see that limit breached, I choose to stick with the evidence and curb my imagination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Straggler, posted 11-29-2008 1:52 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Coyote, posted 11-30-2008 2:33 AM Beretta has not replied
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Beretta
Member (Idle past 5627 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 74 of 217 (489790)
11-30-2008 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Taz
11-30-2008 1:57 AM


Re: Bacterial facts and soulful beliefs
No need to shout Taz -sorry if I pressed your buttons!
Why am I here? Why are you here? I think Percy would certainly contend (with his beady eye) that we were in the wrong thread for that conversation!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Taz, posted 11-30-2008 1:57 AM Taz has not replied

  
Beretta
Member (Idle past 5627 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 76 of 217 (489793)
11-30-2008 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Blue Jay
11-29-2008 3:55 PM


Re: Change in allele frequencies
I call it "hypothetico-deductive logic." You've heard of a guy called "Karl Popper," haven't you? "Proof by disproof," and all that?
You know, I don't care about popper in this situation. If I can experimentally show that a caterpillar changes into a butterfly but I found a finch in my back yard buried at a higher level than the butterfly that I also found fossilized there; I am not going to deduce that with time butterflies change into finches by random mutation until I have some evidence to prop up that assertion.
In the meantime and in the absence of confirmatory evidence, I'll just have to stick with what is provable, that caterpillars change into butterflies. It matters not what popper had to say about this logical reasoning method or that -we all know how proof and conjecture differ.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by fallacycop, posted 11-30-2008 2:33 AM Beretta has replied

  
Beretta
Member (Idle past 5627 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 80 of 217 (489800)
11-30-2008 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Rrhain
11-29-2008 4:03 PM


Transitionals et al
Yes, it does. Again, the fossil record is literally overflowing with transitional fossils.
Gould described the extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record "the trade secret of paleontology"
Paleontologists seem to think it is their duty to protect the rest of us from the erroneous conclusions we may draw should we see for ourselves the actual state of the evidence.
As for Eldridge -he wrote
"Each new generation produces a few young paleontologists eager to document examples of evolutionary change in their fossils. The changes they have looked for have of course been of the gradual progressive sort.More often than not, their efforts have gone unrewarded -their fossils, rather than exhibiting the expected pattern, just seem to persist relatively unchanged....Studies documenting conservative persistence rather than gradual evolutionary change were considered failures, and more often than not weren't even published....gaps in the record continue to be invoked as the prime reason so few cases of gradual change are found."
'Punctuated equilibrium' accomplishes a great deal for evolutionists by making the process of change inherently invisible.
I could give you so many more quotes from true believers (including Eldredge and Gould who remained evolutionists despite the lack of evidence)but this is enough to show that this story of vast numbers of transtitionals is an enormous exaggeration or why would they have said these things? Apart from that no fossil could possibly be used to prove ancestor descendant relationships in principle -they are dead and buried -things that existed in the past and no longer do.
Facts are based on direct observations not on hypotheses in theories.While some explanations may appear plausible especially to a philisophical materialist, it may nonetheless be false.
By this logic, we should open up the prisons and let everyone out. Most crimes take place without witnesses and yet somehow we manage to determine who did it and how and when.
Well I'd venture to say we have a lot more in the way of eyewitness reports and evidence on crime scenes than we do for bacteria changing into bacteriologists. Written history can be very useful for reconstructing the past too but without any witnesses nor any historical reports, we really remain whistling in the dark.
Yes. How does the genome know that it isn't allowed to mutate any more? We've seen pretty much every mutation imaginable down to complete duplication of the entire chromosomal record. We have seen point mutations, insertions, deletions, duplications, transpositions, frame shifts, you name it. What would stop it?
Well what if the original information is coded into the organism along with the ability to adapt by various means to alterations in environment. Just because we can document changes in that original genetic code does not mean to say that a worm genome can code for any other organism now or ever. We have no proof that the barrier between worm and the next hypothesised link can be bridged by way of random variations in an original programme that codes for a worm. Since we don't have that sort of proof, we should not consider it self evident that it can happen until such time as it is proven to be possible.
What if living things really are designed? Someone who discovers a watch on the ground and decides to investigate its origins, would be foolish to rule out design from the outset. He may then waste the rest of his life trying to figure out how the watch made itself.
Why are evolutionists so intent on ruling out design? If they must rule out design a priori, then something like evolution just has to be true before any of the evidence even comes in. That's called a philisophical choice not science since for science one needs experimental evidence. At least science is supposed to work that way.Maybe science has been hijacked by storytellers?
You say I must prove that there's a barrier to variation but that's not how it works. If you say that butter turns to ginger beer when you add caustic soda -do you declare it to be fact until such time as I prove that it is not true? The same with fossils - declare truth on evidence, not on extrapolation and supposition.There are still 2 choices -we were designed OR we evolved from non-living chemicals by random mutation and pure chance over a very long time.
Why should I prove that you're wrong. You prove to me that you're right before you declare what is truth and what is not.At least let's show that the train's moving in the right direction to produce all this prodigious change that you believe was possible.
We have presented the evidence to you over and over again here. The fact that you deny it doesn't change the fact that it exists.
Rhain Rhain go away, you have presented not evidence but supposition and theory. But you're right that denial doesn't change the facts of what actually happened.If you had presented anything convincing enough I would have gone away by now. So I'm not in denial just waiting for the magic bullet that clears the supposed mists from my eyes.
You mean the fossils don't exist? The jaws that I have handled with my own hands were just frauds?
They may exist but you filled in the missing parts with your imagination and your philisophical beliefs.
Thus, all you wind up with over the generations are neutral and beneficial mutations.
So where is the human race's genetic load coming from if that were true?
You mean the fossils don't really exist? They're really scattered across the strata rather than being in chronological order?
How can we know that chronology has anything to do with it? What looks like millions of years of sedimentation happened in one afternoon at Mt St Helens. Very old dates are acquired from rocks known to be under 30 years old. How do we know that these very old dates have anything to do with the truth considering all these things?
Duplication followed by mutation. Is that or is that no "information building"?
No, it is very possibly only variation in original coded information.Go back to the beginning - where did the original information come from?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Rrhain, posted 11-29-2008 4:03 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
Beretta
Member (Idle past 5627 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 81 of 217 (489801)
11-30-2008 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by fallacycop
11-30-2008 2:22 AM


Mutations
Are you saying you believe all the genetic information of all the dog breeds in the whole world was already present originally?
The original perfect information with all its variability, yes.
That no mutations were required for that process? that nothing new was created? Man, you must be crazy!
No, mutations have played their part -more often to the detriment of the original kind of animal. The only beneficial mutations that have ever been shown to exist may be beneficial in certain circumstances -for example wingless beetles on a windy island - but even the beneficial mutations involve a loss of original information.
As for crazy - No, i'm a normal person in a normal family, no medication, no strait jacket, fully functional but unconvinced by evolutionary storytelling. I did once believe the sorts of things that you believe but it was before I really considered the other options in any depth, it was in the days when I did not know that there was an option, the days when I swallowed my indoctrination whole.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by fallacycop, posted 11-30-2008 2:22 AM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by fallacycop, posted 12-06-2008 1:09 AM Beretta has not replied

  
Beretta
Member (Idle past 5627 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 82 of 217 (489802)
11-30-2008 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by fallacycop
11-30-2008 2:33 AM


Incredulity
So you chose to refuse to accept the layers of fossils as evidence for evolution, but you do not give us any alternate explanation for those layers.
Well considering that most of the basic body plans that exist appeared in about 3 minutes in the 11th hour geologically speaking (in the Cambrian)I remain unconvinced. Since radiometric dating is the only dating technique that lends any credence to the vast ages required for hypothetical macroevolution to have happened and is far from reliable and since remains of C14 that should be gone from all the 'old' rock layers still persists in measurable quantities (otherwise named "contamination" by those who 'know' that it should not be there) - I find it a somewhat tall tale at best.Besides I still struggle to imagine how my brain could have evolved randomly.
As for alternatives, I opt for the Word of God over the words of fallible men. It's more in line with the demonstrable evidence.
The problem is not with incredulity, it's 'the credulous' that I find interesting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by fallacycop, posted 11-30-2008 2:33 AM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
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