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Author Topic:   The phrase "Evolution is a fact"
Tanndarr
Member (Idle past 5203 days)
Posts: 68
Joined: 02-14-2008


Message 137 of 217 (523918)
09-13-2009 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Peg
09-13-2009 9:15 AM


Everyone has opinions
Just because Dawkins says something it doesn't mean what he says is necessarily about evolution.
quote:
Artists are lost: they don't have any subject! They used to have religious subjects but they lost their religion and now they haven't got anything.
Physicist Richard Feynman from Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman! (Adventures of a Curious Character)
I notice that Feynman is commenting on art and this neither brings art into the realm of physics (well, not any more than anything else) and it doesn't deter at all from anything that he says about physics. Authors can comment on any damn thing they like in their books, but might have a harder time editorializing in a proper paper.
Abiogenesis has implications for evolution and I think it's safe to say that most modern research in abiogenesis wouldn't be happening if it weren't for evolution; but that doesn't mean that the two are the same. Abiogenesis: How life started. Evolution: How life changes over time.
Simple really...took me longer to memorize the ten commandments.
Edited by Tanndarr, : I can't spell worth a damn

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Peg, posted 09-13-2009 9:15 AM Peg has not replied

  
Tanndarr
Member (Idle past 5203 days)
Posts: 68
Joined: 02-14-2008


Message 164 of 217 (524186)
09-14-2009 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Archangel
09-14-2009 5:48 PM


Allelegorical License
Are you suggesting that a change in allele frequency can only be measured directly by sampling intact genetic material?
Can't we look at the other evidence (including size) of similar creatures and consider all of it when forming a hypothesis? You're telling us that there is only one way to measure change and that seems just plain wrong. Perhaps WK or RAZD could tell us more, or maybe it should be a new topic.
So far all you've done is poo-poo scientists for making educated guesses about the world we see around us and mis-characterizing science as a preachy know-it-all endeavor that indoctrinates kids. Those educated guesses put food on the table for billions, split the atom and put men into space; that's not a bad track record especially when compared with inanities like don't eat shrimp or wear textile blends.
Here's the question: Do populations change over time? We can see it, we can measure it...therefore: evolution is a fact.
Closing your eyes doesn't make it go away I'm afraid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Archangel, posted 09-14-2009 5:48 PM Archangel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Archangel, posted 09-14-2009 10:35 PM Tanndarr has replied
 Message 168 by RAZD, posted 09-14-2009 11:32 PM Tanndarr has replied
 Message 172 by Arphy, posted 09-15-2009 3:02 AM Tanndarr has replied

  
Tanndarr
Member (Idle past 5203 days)
Posts: 68
Joined: 02-14-2008


Message 170 of 217 (524216)
09-15-2009 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Archangel
09-14-2009 10:35 PM


Re: Allelegorical License
Uhh, yeah!!! Why, are you suggesting that we can determine a change in allele frequency by looking at the incomplete fossils from animals who lived an ALLEGED 30 to 50 million years ago? I mean, I get the direct impression that you people think that graph RAZD posted represents millions of years of perfectly preserved skeletons of these animals. But only because that's the impression the evolutionists description gives, of course.
Let me correct you...this is the explanation that is currently offered by the teams of scientists that study these fossils. It's not one person spouting some crackpot theory, it's a bunch of well educated folks who have nothing to gain and everything to lose if they are caught fudging their research.
I'm going to inject a little reality into this debate in order to educate you innocents so as to inoculate you somewhat against the pseudo intellectualism these wannabe scientists promote at every turn around here as they bluster with such assurance about things they have absolutely no real and actual clue about. Let's start with decomposition and the survival of the remains of dead animals in the real world. Let's see what happens to a similar sized animal to the Pelycodus after death using high speed time lapse video. This is following this rabbit for 8 days after death in a protected environment where no predators can contribute to consuming it and carry off the bones. It is safe to say that this rabbit wouldn't have lasted even the 8 days it took it to decompose naturally had predators had access to the remains.
So...you're telling me that fossils are only made by god's sparkly pixie magic? Fossilization is a rare but well understood process which can be easily understood with a little study. The only source of bluster here is you scooter.
Given this reality, how do you propose that generation after generation of Pelycodus fossils survived to be slowly and methodically preserved in layers of strata which left us with a perfectly datable record of when they lived and died? Can any of you intellectual giants explain this problem in the face of an actual video which exposes real time reality for once, apart from actual predators carrying off the bones of course,? Any takers???
Do you now how many Pelycodus fossils have been found to date? Why aren't they mixed in with the trilobites, dinosaurs and humans? You have to offer a better explanation; which, by the way, does not mean one in all caps.
WOW, this is quite a rant. When did I say that science attempts to indoctrinate kids even though I know that evolution does exactly that!
We'll accept that as a plea of guilty then.
I AM ANTI-EVOLUTION BECAUSE IT IS A PHILOSOPHY RATHER THAN A PROVABLE OR VERIFIABLE SCIENCE.
No, maybe it'll help if I use caps: YOU ARE AN ANTI-EVOLUTIONIST BECAUSE YOU REFUSE TO LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE FOR YOURSELF.
LIE TO YOURSELF IF YOU LIKE, MY DELUDED FRIEND, BUT DON'T YOU DARE EXPECT ME TO BELIEVE OR ACCEPT YOUR LIES. EVOLUTION IS A FALSE SCIENCE WHICH HAS NO FOUNDATION IN FACTS AT ALL. IF IT DID, THEN DISHONEST ASSUMPTIONS AND MISLEADING CONCLUSIONS WOULDN'T BE ITS SOP.
Have I said something that bothers you? Could you please try to act like a big kid when you're among adults?
Do you know opponents have been predicting the death of the Theory of Evolution ever since Darwin. It's still here...and getting stronger.
I mentioned this in an earlier post and I want to try to focus you onto the topic: evolution is change in populations over time. We can see this not only in lab experiments, but in examples of ring species and yes, even in the fossil record. Change is the fact of evolution.
I can only assume that you can prove what you say...we're waiting. The subject is "Evolution is a Fact"...here's your chance to offer evidence that shows populations never change.
Edited by Tanndarr, : Finishing sentences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Archangel, posted 09-14-2009 10:35 PM Archangel has not replied

  
Tanndarr
Member (Idle past 5203 days)
Posts: 68
Joined: 02-14-2008


Message 171 of 217 (524218)
09-15-2009 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by RAZD
09-14-2009 11:32 PM


Re: Allelegorical License
Thanks RAZD, we've traded shots before...I've been lurking here a long time (longer than the registered date by a long shot). Usually I keep my fingers to myself and try to learn things.
Gregor Mendel did not need no steenkin DNA to make table after table after table measuring and predicting the change in hereditary traits in the populations of peas.
Thanks again, that's exactly the point I was trying to make. A change in allele frequency can be deduced from observations other than comparing fully sequenced genomes. It seems Archangel disagrees with us so I'm sure he's out looking up sources that will destroy our misguided preconceptions.
Probably in all caps too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by RAZD, posted 09-14-2009 11:32 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by RAZD, posted 09-15-2009 11:39 PM Tanndarr has not replied

  
Tanndarr
Member (Idle past 5203 days)
Posts: 68
Joined: 02-14-2008


Message 183 of 217 (524306)
09-15-2009 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Arphy
09-15-2009 3:02 AM


Re: Allelegorical License
Again, this is the problem with the evolutionists here. They seem to imply that the term evolution only applys to biological evolution. However this is not the case. The term evolution is used as in Cosmic evolution (nothing to do with a change in allele frequency), Stellar and Planetary Evolution (also nothing to do with a change in allele frequency), Abiogenesis is also seen as a type of evolution, and the term evolution is often associated with it, and Chemical Evolution. note that in all of these other examples of types of evolution that evolution seems to mean "simple to complex" or "order from disorder". This is the way I think the term should be used to be consistent. If you want to only talk about biological evolution then state so. But Evolution with a big E is about order from disorder or simple to complex.
My post showed examples of scientific successes and, conversely, the failure of religion to achieve a similar level of success. I was talking about science, not conflating evolution. I made two points in that post which you have sidestepped instead of addressed:
1. Science produces tangible results
2. Evolution (meaning biological evolution) as I described is a fact
The line about evolution being change in populations over time should have been a clue that I was speaking of biological evolution, I apologize if you were unable to draw that inference, but I believed (and still do) that the context was obvious.
The rules of capitalization don't seem to be what you think they are. Big E and little e doesn't change the the message, your herring is red.
Oh, and the order from disorder and simple to complex ideas have nothing to do with evolution, or Evolution either. We observe that life appears to have started off very simply which leaves increasing complexity as the only way to move...but now that more complex forms exist a movement towards less complex or even more disordered life is still evolution. Evolution is change

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Arphy, posted 09-15-2009 3:02 AM Arphy has not replied

  
Tanndarr
Member (Idle past 5203 days)
Posts: 68
Joined: 02-14-2008


Message 205 of 217 (524601)
09-17-2009 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Archangel
09-17-2009 8:36 AM


Re: A second explanation
You claim that 10,000's of people over many decades are liars.
This is also true to a point. Tens of thousands of people have been raised to believe that a false pseudo science is valid. So they have invested their lifetimes attempting to prove it. And since they believe that the premise of this fraudulent science is valid, they promote every aspect of their study as true and interpret every observation as further evidence that they are witnessing evidence of evolution.
Sadly though, since the foundational premise of everything they believe is false, we have more than a century worth of bad/fraudulent science which has become institutionalized as valid and real, leading to the corruption of complete generations since Darwin first promoted his secular philosophy for how man came to be apart from the creation account.
How is it possible to have a discussion with you if you insist that everyone who disagrees with you is lying? Either go present evidence for this vast global conspiracy in an appropriate topic (I suggest calling it "The Conspiracy Theory of Evolution") or actually engage the topic here.
The fact of evolution is that populations change over time; there are documented examples ranging from casual observations to full-blown lab experiments presented in peer-reviewed publications. Several of these have been held up as examples to you and all you can say to dispute it is that all these scientists from all these different backgrounds are lying in order to secretly support a philosophical position.
This topic isn't about all the science, so even if all the explanations for evolution were lies it wouldn't matter. This is about evolution as a fact...we see populations change. Either populations change over time or they don't. If we can agree that populations change then we can start discussing why they change.
So first question: Do populations change over time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Archangel, posted 09-17-2009 8:36 AM Archangel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Archangel, posted 09-17-2009 7:57 PM Tanndarr has replied
 Message 216 by RAZD, posted 09-18-2009 8:04 AM Tanndarr has not replied

  
Tanndarr
Member (Idle past 5203 days)
Posts: 68
Joined: 02-14-2008


Message 213 of 217 (524635)
09-17-2009 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Archangel
09-17-2009 7:57 PM


Swing and a miss!
Out of all that you either missed or chose to ignore the direct question that goes to the heart of this topic:
Do populations change over time?
I'll be happy to look at what you post demonstrating that life sciences are built upon a foundation of lies and fraud in whatever thread that winds up landing in. I hope you'll be able to defend that position better than the others who've tried it in the past.
Now, do me the same favor and answer the question I've asked:
Do populations change over time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Archangel, posted 09-17-2009 7:57 PM Archangel has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Huntard, posted 09-18-2009 3:03 AM Tanndarr has not replied

  
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