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Author Topic:   The phrase "Evolution is a fact"
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 112 of 217 (516250)
07-24-2009 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by crawler30
07-23-2009 11:50 PM


But in what way have we acctually obsereved as scientists the effects of evolution without any outside influence.
The driver of evolution, besides the mutations themselves, is the environment. That's the thing that actually "selects" which genes get passed on, so in effect, all evolution is partly outside influence.
Some examples we have seen is the development of lactose digesting ability in e. coli. There are also the famous nylon eating bacteria. They couldn't have existed before we developed Nylon, so they must be a relatively new species.
But the fact remains that if you leave things to their own devices man has never noted any significant changes in a population over time. And if we had then natural selection would be thrown out the window because appearently it happens faster than, natural selection would allow for an entire population to change into a new spieces.
A population evolves, and the limiting factor is generation length. For a species to evolve, a mutation needs to be passed on a number of times for it to spread. When we want to see evolution in action, then, we use species that reproduce quickly. Things like bacteria, fruit flies, etc, that can go from generation 1 to generation 100 in just a couple weeks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by crawler30, posted 07-23-2009 11:50 PM crawler30 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by crawler30, posted 07-24-2009 11:06 AM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 114 of 217 (516265)
07-24-2009 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by crawler30
07-24-2009 11:06 AM


But see the point is that the mainstream Darwinian view of evolution says that life changes on accident,
Not quite, but close enough for this post, I guess.
but how can you explain this when you point out the nylon eating bacteria? A new niche opened up for an organizm to fill, so it was filled by a bacteria whom never existed before.
Again, not quite. I don't know the exact lineage, but there would have been bacteria that ate other types of cloth, probably wool or cotton. The fact that nylon is synthetic doesn't mean it would take more than a single mutation to allow it to eat nylon.
This would lead me to believe that it purposefully happened because there was a reason to have happened.
There's a reason for a lot of things to happen which haven't. Just because you can conceive of a reason doesn't mean that was actually how or why it happened in reality.
For instance, what reason would this species have come into being, obviously they had enough food to survive as they were so why the new diet?
Well, maybe there wasn't a lot of food where they were. Imagine if we have a cotton eating macteria. It's happily munching on your underwear, when you decide to wear that particulr pair of underwear. You pick it up, and a couple bacteria fall off onto the bra sitting next to your underwear pile. There's no longer a lot of cotton, but luckily, one of the bacteria had the mutation to allow it to digest nylon, and as the rest of the bacteria die, it happily munches on, dividing and creating a new lineage of nylon eating bacteria.
Another reason is even more likely. A lot of bacteria are happily munching on cotton, and none are munching on the nylon near by. One bacterium gets the ability to eat nylon, and finds, "Hey, I have no competition here! I can eat all I want with no effort!" Again, it starts happily munching nylon where it doesn't have to compete, and starts dividing. Eventually, the nylon is just as congested as the cotton, but the two lines of bacteria are no longer the same.
Because it could? Maybe it was because for eveything on earth, nothing is ever wasted, even excriment has its role in life. And every niche gets filled appearently some very quickly as these bacteria have shown.
Correct, but that's a direct consequence of evolution. If an evolution allows an individual to access a resource that nothing else is using, then it has no competition and will live a long time, mating and passing on it's genes as it does, letting more animals use this untapped resource. Eventually, the new type and the old will develop more mutations, further dirving them apart until they can no longer interbreed, and viola, we have a new species.
BTW I did not join this forum to ridicule others for their beliefs or be ridiculed, I am here to learn with an open mind. I personally believe in God, but I do not expect everyone else to.
Welcome to the forum. We try not to ridicule people here, in fact, it's against the forum rules, but we won't hand-hold either. If someone's position is ridiculous, there are a lot of very smart people on here who will tear it apart. Quite often, this can seem rude or insensitive to the person who's position is getting ripped apart, but it's not meant personally...usually.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by crawler30, posted 07-24-2009 11:06 AM crawler30 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by crawler30, posted 07-24-2009 12:33 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 116 of 217 (516280)
07-24-2009 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by crawler30
07-24-2009 12:33 PM


but if no one observed the mutation only the outcome and the lineage has not been identified, then how was this "evolution" observed?
I said I didn't know the particulars. The original strain was discovered in a pond outside a nylon factory. It has since been duplicated in a different type of bacteria:
wikipedia writes:
Scientists have also been able to induce another species of bacteria, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, to evolve the capability to break down the same nylon byproducts in a laboratory by forcing them to live in an environment with no other source of nutrients. The P. aeruginosa strain did not seem to use the same enzymes that had been utilized by the original Flavobacterium strain.[5] Other scientists were able to get the ability to generate the enzymes to transfer from the Flavobacterium strain to a strain of E. coli bacteria via a plasmid transfer.[6]
Regardless, the fact that a nylon eating bacterium couldn't live until we developed nylon, a completely synthetic fiber, it must be a new species. Unless you're postulating that it somehow just zapped into being, sharing many similarities to another type of bacteria, except for one difference, seems to be reaching a bit.
A scientific observation includes the entire change or the residual effects of the change, such as energy release etc. which would not solely be based on the fact that there was suddenly one day a new species itself in an uncontrolled environment with any number of species and outside influences acting on the lineage of this new species. Right?
Nope. Technically, a scientific observation is merely an observation. If you know all the characteristics of the change, that makes a lot of your job easier, but all you need is seeing an unusual type of stone on a path to begin an investigation of how it got there. You can then discover that a construction crew that built the path brought in gravel from a quarry 50 miles away. You have your answer despite not having seen the actual gravel being harvested, delivered, or dumped.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by crawler30, posted 07-24-2009 12:33 PM crawler30 has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 123 of 217 (521277)
08-26-2009 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by God of Pokiphlanon
08-26-2009 5:30 PM


Re: Not true
There are two ways the word evolution is used. When speaking about The Theory of Evolution, which has a mechanism for evolution to work, namely mutation and natural selection, then you're correct.
However, the theory was created to explain the facts we see, namely that species change and adapt...they evolve. It is this second sense in which the phrase "evolution is a fact" is used. Evolution is observed, we know it happens. We also have a theory that tries to explain how it works.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by God of Pokiphlanon, posted 08-26-2009 5:30 PM God of Pokiphlanon has not replied

  
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