Buzsaw Biblical Universe Origin Hypothesis vs Singularity Universe Origin Theory

My apologies, Dr Jones. I shut down my computer and after thinking came back to it to revise my message but too late. I should have just acknowledged your valid point minus the unkindly remark.That the universe allegedly began an instant after T

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Rrhain, I don't know what else to say than what I've already said. You also appear to be ignoring my model which factors in omnipotent ID creator mangement, with relative stable entropy and source of energy always greater; i.e. A always greater than B.None of your education ever considered this model. Imo, you have yet to refute my claim that it is more thermodynamically compatible than your temporal (time related; not eternal) model.As with your model, I'm admitting that mine also has some unknowns. Imo you're requiring more of me than you are of yourself.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

I'll rephrase my questions to simplify and clarify:1. Any temporal (not eternal) universe must have a beginning point. Right?2. Since a temporal (not eternal) universe MUST have a beginning, all forces, energy, matter and spacetime had to have began to exist, i.e. had a point of beginning. Right?3. How does the above temporal (not eternal) universe comply with any of the observed laws of science?

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Hi Son Goku. I'm Buzsaw. I believe you intended to address ICant, not Isaw, or were you being facetious?Would you please address the questions above which I asked PaulK? I believe I asked similar questions to you at one time which you did not respond to unless I missed it.Thanks.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Thanks for weighing in on this.1. Yes, I meant a universe where there is a finite amount of time in the past direction. So on that basis I assume your answer would be "yes" to my points one and two. Correct me if mistaken.2. What is there to equalize, i.e. an A and B, for a temporal expansion universe having no outside of and a finite past direction (abe: so as to render) it compatible to 2LoT? Edited by Buzsaw, : Change wording for clarification.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

The problem I see and have repeatedly posed throughout this thread with your theory, is that the the expansion allegedly came to be from T<0, a state (abe: of) no energy, space, forces or matter to a state of the existence of all of these.Your thermodynamic related theory contradicts all of the observed scientific LoTs. Such unfalsifiable claims are never tolerated on behalf of creationists positions.On the otherhand my (BBUH/Buzsaw Biblical Universe Hypothesis) of infinite energy does not contradict observed scientific LoTs, in that energy is transfered, not created.Edited by Buzsaw, : Indicated in context

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

1. My thoughts are off the cuff, that you don't get a free lunch. Imo, it's nonsensical, illogical and unscientific.2. I've got my plate full with the topic which is about my hypothesis and the conventional BB theory. I don't have the time to delve into feasibilities of things as this.3. Where has it has been empirically established that my hypothesis does not comply with all of the LoTs?

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

You need to reconsider demeaning my character as dishonest.I've learned to avoid the word/term "model" relative to this segment of the debate. Please note the wording of my late messages to which you are responding. You misrepresented my argument
here and here. 1. I'm not claiming the status of theory. I'm attempting to show reason to question your claim to that status relative to BB conventional theory.2. I'm questioning the falsifiability of BB conventional theory which is prevalently tolerated. If you think that is the case then you need to empirically refute my argument. You haven't done that yet. The BBUH involves transferred energy. Yours implies created energy. I don't buy all that I've been told just as you don't. There was a time in history where the majority were allegedly told that the earth was flat.I've done some research on the perpetual motion machine of the 2nd kind such as
this The above example would be unusual so far as conventional science goes as is the BBUH but the principle would be analogous. The source of energy would be the supreme designer/creator who would be the ocean full of energy and creation, the ship.You can buy a perpetual clock which runs by barometric pressure. I sold a vintage one on ebay a few years ago. It would be another example of how the BBUH would work within 2LoT.Wikipedia says this which is helpful in making my point here as well. (embolding mine)Note the word, usually. The BBUH is unusual such as a perpetual machine of the 2nd time.The BBUH is hypothetical since it factors in the LoTs, mathematical probabilities, observance of complex design, etc and since there is a reasonable amount of corroborative evidence for the credibility of the Biblical record whether antagonists want to admit that or not. I have been often obligated to answer repetitive responses to my messages. Though my time is limited I do the best I can in that regard.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

1. It passes the test of mathematical probabilities.2. It passes the test of observable complex design.3. It passes the test of compatibility with LoTs.4. The historical record from which it is derived from passes the test of credibility relative to Biblical related archeological discoveries, such as the Aqaba Exodus crossing, etc, discovery of archeological sites, Black Sea Discoveries, etc.5. Metaphysical observations relative to both the good and the evil evidence the existence of intelligence beyond that which is normally observable by the naked eye.6. It passes the test of logic and common sense relative to the properties of space, the before problem and outside problem relative to the BB theory.7. It provides a logical answer to the problem of energy, forces and spacetime (how they happen to exist) relative to LoTs.8 For Biblical creationists it passes the test of where God was in eternity relative to the universe according to the Genesis record.Those are a few of the many tests which would apply to the BBUH.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

1. I'm quite sure I know what Tmagic, ignoring LoTs. Why should I allow you to slide by on it relative to this debate?3. Please articulate empirically, concisely and precisely in one message of brief statements why the BBUH violates Lot's 1, 2 and 3. Please do them one by one. I would appreciate that from you.4. Then please articulate empirically, concisely individually and precisely how a T<0, required for a temporal universe (Time-related to the past; not eternal) complies with LoTs 1, 2 and 3.(abe: Relative to the above, I'm not arguing that T<0 is part and parcel of bb theory beginning from t<10-43. my argument that the expansion being temporal (time-related to past; not eternal) must does assume a t<0.)
Edited by Buzsaw, : Clarify position

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Thanks very much, Straggler for taking the time and effort to respond to my points and answer questions. I just opened the thread and read your response. I don't have time to do much at this time since I've got some things needing to be done by tomorrow away from the computer but I'll begin with the following: 1. My position all through this thread and all related threads has been that the universe is eternal, having no beginning. This is required for the existence of an eternal intelligent designer/manager of the universe. I have no idea how you missed that after all I've said on it.2. My position relative to energy is that the aggregate of it never increases or diminishes, the designer/manager being the source of everything including energy. Energy in this system works like the ship analogy in which the ship draws it's energy/power from the ocean (which source of energy will always be greater than the ship) The ship in turn expels energy as the analogy explains which returns energy to the ocean. There are differences in that the designer possesses intelligence so as to manage the system at will.3. If you reread my messages you should be aware by now that the source of energy is the designer/creator from whom all creation came, each thing in it's own time within eternity.4. Again, no energy is created. It is all transferred from the source, effecting varied states of equilibrium relative to the system. Remember, I said the energy source rested on the 7th day after having expended 6 creation days of work. Remember also that I said Jesus, son of the energy source stated that energy had left him when the woman from the pressing crowd secretly touched the hem of his garment resulting in her sudden healing. Energy was transerred from Jesus to the woman causing a sensation of loss from the healer/son of the universe designer/manager.So as you admit, factoring the above, the BBUH passes the test of the first Law. Hopefully, tomorrow I can move on to the 2nd Law relative to the BBUH with responses to your points.Thanks again for the time and effort you've expended to address this.ABE: I haven't had the time to go to the TEdited by Buzsaw, : Add to message and update message title.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

No, I didn't miss a thing. I have learned to respect Straggler a lot, but imo there was no needful purpose for this iffy. My position was crystal clear on that count. 1. As I understand it, being a closed system, no energy is ever expended from the system. No system energy losses are to be predicted. There is only varied amounts of equilibrium due to transferred energy within the system. Correct? Though the ship analogy has some differences, the point I was attempting to convey is that the equilibrium may remain stable between the ship and the ocean as long as the ship's voyages continue. It may not be a perfect analogy, but neither is the 2D balloon analogy for a 3D universe.Be ever mindful that my hypothesis has the unique aspect of an ID source of energy within the system having the ability to manage the equilibrium of the energy within the system. As with the ship analogy where intelligence is a factor (in a different way), 2LoT works somewhat differently than if the system were random, restricted to natural processes.You say, "foul - no magic allowed." I respond, what's good for the gander is good for the goose. I can't empirically verify my ID source of energy. You can't empirically verify what happened before T<10-43. Both involve mystery.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

I think I've got a pretty sound handle on the 2nd law. However the way you have layed it out here is helpful for a refresher on it. The debatable aspects of it in this thread is how it may or may not apply to BB theory and the BBUH. Agreed. 1. My system is not creator + universe. It is eternal ID creator source and manager of energy within the eternal universe/system, both A and B being part and parcel of the eternal system. {Perhaps that's what you meant.) The entropy within the system would be affected in an ID managed system. The natural tendency relative to the law would be affected by the work of the designer/creator.A. Planet earth created dark, formless and subject to 2LoT. If left to natural effects of 2LoT, entropy on the increase.B. ID creator sends multipresent spirit to move/work on the formless void. After creation ID creator rests/rejuvenates somewhat as ocean does when ship returns energy to source/ocean.C. Creator managing the whole universe allowing entropy to increase naturally in desired areas while working to lessen it in others.D. Creator/designer allegedly proposes to eventually destroy earth's galaxy/Milky Way to create new heavens and earth at some future time as I understand the proposed plans. Magic, if you will, does manage the entropy and equilibrium of the Biblical unique system. Stars and galaxies are forming and dying. Nobody knows the extent of design, intelligence and complexity within the systems of the universe.Everything is on tract for the new super climate via global warming and short term disasters to effect a transformation of planet earth back into it's pre-flood state, Satan being subjected to the bottomless pit for a thousand years and mesianic millemium to emerge upon the planet, all according to the Biblical record. We're experiencing the emergence into the terrible times prophesied for the latter days. Hang onto your hats! The ride gets much rougher. The youth living now will be caught up in it before they die a normal death. It's that imminent!To go into the above in depth would be off topic. I've not said it to be preachy. I've said the above to say the universe may appear to be loosing entropy but mice and men haven't a clue, outside of the Biblical record/prophecy of how the equilibrium and entropy relative to 2LoT can be managed by the almighty creator, Jehovah! That's all I have time for and that's likely all and more than you care to hear. G'nite/morning. Thanks very much for your input! Gotta hit hay.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

1. The BBUH source of energy is alive and intelligent, unlike an inanimate source having no informational or intelligence properties. A living intelligent source of energy would have the working ability to effect a reduced entropy of the system so long as the reduction would not exceed the energy of the source, would it not?2. As I read this I, being a living being with informational amd intelligence properties recycle food and oxygen etc into energetic waste, carbon dioxide and radiate heat etc which will in turn recycle into the plant kingdom thereby allowing the production of more oxygen and food etc. If I died or stopped eating and breathing, the entropy begins to increase as the recycling cycle ends. How does this recycling process in itself increase the total eEntropy of the universe?

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

How so when the intelligent energy source manages the energy of the system? 1. You have not completed the recycling process relative to production of the plants, heat, waste energy etc.2. If I had never been born, how would the total entropy of the universe be any different than it is now that I am living on the planet?

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.