ZeitGeist

Here again is Brenna's wonderful use of the english language. Have you not read the warnings by the admins in the ID thread? And what are you trying to say with your disciple comment. According to the bible they were eyewitnesses, of course. The point was how do you account for Thomas' skepticism even after seeing Jesus raise a little girl from the dead?If I see a man raise someone from the dead as well as perform other countless miracles, I would surely be satisfied that he was the son of God. I would be CRAZY/INSANE or have the memory of a goldfish if I questioned him again.

Because its homologous with all other sources, its consistent, it stands up to prophecy, etc. There is no single reason to believe it, but a plethora of varying reasons. Nonsense... None of those reasons legitimately justify anything. You know exactly how I should act, what I should believe, what I can or cannot do, because you have the exact moral schematic I ascribe to. And you should hold me accountable to them. With you, and those of your ilk, there is nothing clear about it, which allows for you to sit on a perch of moral superiority because no one can identify exactly what it is you ascribe to from a moral framework. Nothing in your world is concrete. You can easily change them on a whim based on whatever fanciful ideas you want. I have no such luxury, which is fine with me, because I prefer being consistent. Perhaps not inherently or specifically, but that is the undeniable outcome. You can't have positive evidence of a negative. Atheism isn't merely declaring a lack of belief. It is an affirmation, in the positive, that God does not exist. And if you think about it objectively, being an atheist is actually an impossible act. It is because of this that the terms "weak" or "strong" atheists, which basically is an invented term that is no different from agnosticism, except that they get to retain the coveted title of atheist. You mean lack of evidence, not evidence. If something doesn't exist, there is no evidence, not evidence to the contrary.

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"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

Its funny how thiests or christians think or claim that atheists believe we came out of nothing. Yet they claim that a God they have never seen or can prove exists was always there!Let me point you to the very first verse in the bible. 'In the BEGINNING.....' Can you kindly tell me what that means?What beginning, I thought God has no beginning?Interestingly enough it goes on to say 'God was the WORD' ...Has it ever occurred to you that this may be referring to human speech? Meaning the exercise of the human vocal chords?

um. thomas was a disciple, dear. he was supposed to see him eventually, he just reserved his belief until he did.

The reason the story is recorded at all is to show that Jesus did approve of skepticism. Those who believe without seeing any evidence are blessed. Those who do see evidence are allowed to examine it. Then you're very gullible. You'd be crazy/insane/goldfish-brained if you didn't ask Penn and Teller what was behind the curtain.Edited by Ringo, : Changed tense: "what's" --> "what was".

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
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I still see the whole Thomas story as religious marketing.Your second statement is false because Thomas lived with Jesus, meaning they were for the most part together. There would be no reason for Thomas to believe that Jesus was a traveling magician that employed the people of Judea to fake illness and even death. Its reasonable to point out that Thomas' initial skepticism was justified, but to continue to have skepticism regarding a man you've traveled with and witnessed miracles through implies 2 things; Thomas was crazy, or Thomas was just an ICON or tool for religious marketing.I can site a hundred other things in the bible that are just as sketchy.

I'm not sure what this means. What is Thomas' purpose in reserving his belief?Also can an admin please give me a step by step on how to quote others here. I went through the FAQ but there's nothing there regarding quotes.

Normally I reply in sequential order, but this one needs to be addressed now. You shouldn't throw stones in glass houses. Who said that I was done with my explanations? Here you go:Flavius Josephus:

Tacitus: “Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians, by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had it’s origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontious Pilate. A most mischievous superstition, thus checked for a moment, broke out again not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular . And perishing they were additionally made into sports: they were killed by dogs by having the hides of beasts attached to them, or they were nailed to crosses or set aflame, and, when the daylight passed away, they were used as nighttime lamps . people began to pity these sufferers, because, they were consumed not for the public good but on account of the fierceness of one man.”Pliny the Younger: “They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor dent a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food, but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”Babylonian Talmud: (33 AD) This is the actual recording by the very men that ordered the execution of Jesus. *Take note of His charge*“On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, ”He is going forth to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything on his behalf, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.” Therefore, we see that Jesus was crucified for supposedly leading others away from the Law and for sorcery. This corroborates the gospels magnificently, as we see extra-biblical evidence of His miracles and of His teachings, even though He did NOT teach against the Law.“Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, ”Cursed is every one who hangs from a tree.” -Galatians 3:13Lucian: “The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day- the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account... You see, these misguided creatures’s start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them. And then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and to deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they quite take on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.” I'm not religious. Instead of religiosity, I opt for a relationship with God. Where others expect to reach God, I expect God to reach me through person of Yeshua. Yes, yes it does... Alleluia! Perhaps the delusion is all on your side of the table. Have you ever considered that possibility? How does my belief in God negate the INFINITE beauty and mystery of life, as opposed to enhancing it? "...alright then, have it your way." -C.S. Lewis"Son of man, listen carefully and take to heart all the words I speak to you. Go now to your countrymen in exile and speak to them. Say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says,' whether they listen or fail to listen...

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When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself." -excerpts from Ezekiel 3Translation: "Those to whom it is given to preach the gospel are not responsible for its acceptance by their hearers. If men do receive the Word in faith, it becomes to them a savor unto life; if they refuse to obey it, it is death unto death." -H.A. Ironside

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"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

It's the only source that says what it says, NJ. There's no other source of Jesus's words except the Bible, and the people who are quoting the Bible. So, no, it's not consistent with any other source; in fact, it's completely inconsistent with all other sources. Consistent with what? Other sources? There are no other sources that corroborate the Bible, just other writers who quote the Bible. Consistent with itself? We've dispelled that myth around here long ago. (Are good works required to get into heaven? The Bible offers two different opinions.) The only prophecies the Bible lives up to are the ones that are in the Bible; that's hardly indicative of anything. Hell, even in Lord of the Rings Tolkein writes prophecy in the beginning that is fulfilled by the end. Why would that be significant? Even the ancient Greeks knew that "prophecy" was a mug's game, and there's a hundred books on how to fake prophecy. (Hint - be as vague as possible.) Should you drink, or not? Some people read the Bible and say "no, not ever." Some people read the Bible and say "Jesus drank, so we should have wine at communion."Exact same moral schematic? NJ, there's more than 30,000 different Christian churches, each with their own idiosyncratic moral schematic. Is homosexuality wrong or right? Is divorce ok? Smoking pot? Having sex?Do you think that Christian internet boards talk about these issues any less than we do, simply by virtue of everybody reading the same Bible? I assure you that they do not. Jesus, how many times here do you find yourself arguing with other Christians, NJ? Or do you just make the hilarious assumption that anybody who disagrees with you is a secret atheist pretending to be religious? NJ, I am denying that's the outcome. People typically don't change their behavior after becoming atheist, except maybe to stop going to church.All that happens is that you stop using religion to justify your behavior. For some people and some behaviors, that's enough to get them to stop the behavior altogether. For others, they change the justification. Where going to church was justified by "it's what God wants me to do", now it's justified by "I like the music." Most of the atheists I know in real life haven't stopped going to church. It really doesn't make that much of a difference in your behavior - because religious people do what they want to do, anyway. You do. Being religious hasn't ever stopped you from bearing false witness all over this place. In the words of Samuel Johnson, "I refute it - thus!"Ok, well, that doesn't work so well on the internet because you can't see me kicking a stone like Johnson did. My world does contain things that are concrete - the things that are in the world. (Like actual concrete.) You've had every opportunity to prove that, and have failed each and every time. Excuse me if I ignore your empty assertion here. Lack of evidence is evidence to the contrary. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Everybody knows that.

Yes, I know that, Honey, but it's irrelevant."Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe." Is that passage just not in your Bible, or what? Open it. Read it. I quoted it so that you didn't even have to look it up. Why aren't you reading it? And Jesus burned his ass for it, in front of all his buddies. Told him he did exactly the wrong thing. How could that not be clear to you yet?

use the square brackets around the following.
qs to open
/qs to close
it makes the following because he didn't trust his friends? why would you demand proof for something?

congratulations. it's there, i've read it. just because you bless someone doesn't mean you curse everyone else. fine.

Damned by faint praise.

I'm sorry but that is just another example of the total and continual misrepresentation of Biblical Christians as well as the Willful Ignorance of anyone who repeats such nonsense.Go and actually study the Talmud and you will see that what the apologetics have quotemined out of context is simply a hypothetical as opposed to historical incident and is concerned with the legal requirements for capital punishment.Why do the Biblical Christian Apologetics continue to use false assertions and misrepresentation and why doesn't the vast body of Christians stand up and point out the total moral bankruptcy of the vast majority of Christian Apologists and so called Biblical Christians?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Oh, you know that for certain because you can crawl inside their mind? Think about it Spektical. Lets say you are married and your pretty, little wife tells you all the time that she loves you, and pours out her affection for you. But you don't know that she loves you in the same way that you know that you love her. You believe it, based on what you have gleaned as credible information. Well, its the same with me and God.You seem to think that "faith" only encompasses blind faith. It does not. There is blind faith, and then there is an informed faith. Your parents love for you comes from an informed faith. Do you really not understand the difference? Of course you have beliefs, don't be silly. And you say all of this right after you laud Zeitgeist, even after stating that you don't care whether or not its true. I am truly astonished. And you know all of this as an objective fact, or are you basing it on something you deem to be plausible? Because he is reputed to be sinless... Anyone else dying on the cross is people who were tortured and murdered. What makes the death, burial, and resurrection was that it came from the spotless lamb our passover, who atoned for OUR sins. I think you need to go read the scriptures and understand these very basic Judeo-Christian principles before you go on maligning something you have only a nominal familiarity with. You know, whether or not God is real is pretty inconsequential to why humans would assume such a deity exists. Clearly, there is some evolutionary reason, all natural of course, for why the masses have always felt connected to this. Why then scoff at it, as if nature was conspiring against us? I have in the past when I was a staunch cynic, and I still do as a Believer. Maybe you should heed your own advice though. We should always try a spoonful of our own medicine before telling others to take it.

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"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias