Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,356 Year: 3,613/9,624 Month: 484/974 Week: 97/276 Day: 25/23 Hour: 0/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   ZeitGeist
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 185 (429751)
10-21-2007 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by PaulK
10-21-2007 1:51 PM


Re: JC Did Not Exist!
Tell, NJ, me do you actually READ the Bible ? You know, as in reading the verses in context?... So tell me, how is Jesus claiming to be God in John 18:5 ?
Sheesh, talk about reading it in context
Did you miss the part where I quoted right after, Exodus, which explains the significance of "I AM," thus further explaining why they all fell down when He said it?

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by PaulK, posted 10-21-2007 1:51 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by PaulK, posted 10-21-2007 4:52 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 431 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 107 of 185 (429754)
10-21-2007 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Spektical
10-21-2007 3:44 PM


Spektical writes:
I still see the whole Thomas story as religious marketing.
Sure. That's why the skepticism is downplayed. The authors wanted their audience to have faith. But why would they put in a story about skepticism at all if it wasn't acceptable?
... Thomas lived with Jesus, meaning they were for the most part together. There would be no reason for Thomas to believe that Jesus was a traveling magician that employed the people of Judea to fake illness and even death.
All the more reason for Thomas to doubt if he had seen iffy "miracles" before.
Its reasonable to point out that Thomas' initial skepticism was justified...
There was only "initial skepticism". After he saw the evidence, Thomas believed.
... but to continue to have skepticism regarding a man you've traveled with and witnessed miracles through implies 2 things; Thomas was crazy, or Thomas was just an ICON or tool for religious marketing.
If Thomas had still been skeptical, you're still missing a third, more obvious, possibility - that Jesus was, in fact, a faker.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Spektical, posted 10-21-2007 3:44 PM Spektical has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 108 of 185 (429755)
10-21-2007 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Hyroglyphx
10-21-2007 4:44 PM


Re: JC Did Not Exist!
quote:
Sheesh, talk about reading it in context
Did you miss the part where I quoted right after, Exodus, which explains the significance of "I AM," thus further explaining why they all fell down when He said it?
Yes I did. And it obviously isn't relevant if you read John 18:5 IN CONTEXT.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-21-2007 4:44 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 109 of 185 (429756)
10-21-2007 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by jar
10-21-2007 1:04 PM


Re: on the historical Jesus.
What I find amazing is the way in which people from both sides of this debate (Jesus: Real or Not?) get so worked up emotionally at either trying to prove that Jesus existed and was the Son of God or whether He either never existed or was one of many minor players in history.
Jar writes:
...even if the stories are nothing more than tales told round the campfire, the lessons and message contained in them are still valid.
I cannot disagree with you there.
My question would be whether the whole idea of God communing with humanity originated from God directly influencing humanity or whether the idea originated from within humanity itself.
How would we know, in any case? One thing that amazes me about the "stories" is the fact that they speak to humanity. The issue of whether Jesus was divine while on earth or human while on earth is irrelevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 10-21-2007 1:04 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 10-21-2007 4:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 112 by ringo, posted 10-21-2007 5:09 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 110 of 185 (429757)
10-21-2007 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
10-21-2007 4:53 PM


Re: on the historical Jesus.
My question would be whether the whole idea of God communing with humanity originated from God directly influencing humanity or whether the idea originated from within humanity itself.
It could only originate from humanity. There is no other option.
The issue of whether Jesus was divine while on earth or human while on earth is irrelevant.
Irrelevant to...?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 10-21-2007 4:53 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 185 (429758)
10-21-2007 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Spektical
10-21-2007 2:16 PM


Re: JC Did Not Exist!
Its funny how thiests or christians think or claim that atheists believe we came out of nothing. Yet they claim that a God they have never seen or can prove exists was always there!
Let me break it down for you:
An actual infinite cannot exist. A beginningless series of events would constitute an actual infinite. We understand this principle from a philosophical point of view, and as well it conforms to observations about the universe. Therefore matter, space, and time (which are intimately connected to one another) had a definite beginning. There is no infinity when speaking about the material universe.
Every material thing that exists had a cause in which to explain its existence. If the material world is all you have to explain the material world, how do you get around this megalithic problem without invoking something beyond the material world?
Let me point you to the very first verse in the bible. 'In the BEGINNING.....' Can you kindly tell me what that means?
In the beginning of matter..... The end.
What beginning, I thought God has no beginning?
God doesn't, the material world does.... The end.
Interestingly enough it goes on to say 'God was the WORD' ...Has it ever occurred to you that this may be referring to human speech? Meaning the exercise of the human vocal chords?
When it says that God is the Word, or He speaks in to existence, again that is allegorical since God, being not made of matter, has no need of vocal chords.
Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : double posted on a single post.
Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : Did it again!
Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : Identified the problem... open url tag

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Spektical, posted 10-21-2007 2:16 PM Spektical has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by crashfrog, posted 10-21-2007 6:08 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 431 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 112 of 185 (429760)
10-21-2007 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
10-21-2007 4:53 PM


Re: on the historical Jesus.
Phat writes:
One thing that amazes me about the "stories" is the fact that they speak to humanity.
War and Peace speaks to humanity. Harry Potter speaks to humanity. The Honeymooners speaks to humanity. Hockey Night in Canada speaks to humanity.
Humanity seems to have an almost infinite capacity to be spoken to.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 10-21-2007 4:53 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 10-21-2007 5:25 PM ringo has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 113 of 185 (429761)
10-21-2007 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by ringo
10-21-2007 5:09 PM


Re: on the historical Jesus.
Ringo writes:
Humanity seems to have an almost infinite capacity to be spoken to.
Indeed. But it is interesting what we really want to listen to.
We agree with Harry Potter because the story empowers humanity.
We tend to disagree with Biblical Literalism because it makes us imperfect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by ringo, posted 10-21-2007 5:09 PM ringo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 10-21-2007 5:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 151 by nator, posted 10-22-2007 10:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 114 of 185 (429763)
10-21-2007 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
10-21-2007 5:25 PM


Re: on the historical Jesus.
We tend to disagree with Biblical Literalism because it makes us imperfect.
Bullshit Phat. We disagree with Biblical Literalism because it is impossible to support and remain honest.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 10-21-2007 5:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Spektical, posted 10-21-2007 6:13 PM jar has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1486 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 115 of 185 (429776)
10-21-2007 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Hyroglyphx
10-21-2007 4:30 PM


Re: JC Did Not Exist!
Well, its the same with me and God.
Except that wives exist; if you don't believe mine does, I could potentially present her birth certificate, master degree, driver's license, and other legal documents that testify to her existence.
You can't be gleaning evidence that leads you to the conclusion that "god loves you" because there's no such thing as God. QED.
There is blind faith, and then there is an informed faith.
Faith and evidence are an inverse relationship. To the degree that a certain proposition has evidence to support it, less faith is needed to believe it. To the extent that a position must be taken on complete faith, it has no evidence in its favor.
And if one makes an effort to believe only in that for which there is sufficient evidence, then one is, by definition, living without faith.
You know, whether or not God is real is pretty inconsequential to why humans would assume such a deity exists.
I agree completely. Which is why your continued reasoning:
quote:
Why then scoff at it, as if nature was conspiring against us?
is completely specious. We scoff at it because evolution doesn't optimize. It doesn't perfect. And it isn't human-centric. Human beings get tapeworms, too, but we wouldn't say that "we get tapeworms for a reason, and so we shouldn't scoff at them and try to have them removed from our bowels, but rather we should all ingest tapeworm eggs to have one of our own."
But that's exactly what you're suggesting here. We don't know that human beings evolved to have religion. Maybe religion evolved to have us, like a parasite or a disease. We don't know that religion constitutes a survival benefit for the humans that believe in it. It may very well be the case that human belief constitutes a survival benefit for religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-21-2007 4:30 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1486 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 116 of 185 (429778)
10-21-2007 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Hyroglyphx
10-21-2007 4:57 PM


Re: JC Did Not Exist!
An actual infinite cannot exist.
Actual infinites do exist, such as the set of all real numbers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-21-2007 4:57 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Spektical, posted 10-21-2007 6:15 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 123 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-21-2007 8:59 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Spektical
Member (Idle past 5996 days)
Posts: 119
Joined: 10-16-2007


Message 117 of 185 (429782)
10-21-2007 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by jar
10-21-2007 5:27 PM


Re: on the historical Jesus.
Lol at NJ...beginning of matter? where did you get that from?
It doesn't say matter in the bible. Also please explain to me this concept of the 'WORD'. The passage is obscure and open to interpretation.
Second, you say we HAD to INVOKE a being outside of the material world?? I rest my case right there. You are very correct in saying this NJ and now I agree with you. Humans HAD to INVOKE a being outside of the material world because it was the first time they experienced sentience, however this didn't happen overnight, it happened very gradually.
They couldn't explain the world around them, in actuality they saw a great warm disk in the sky and immediately payed respect to it for they knew not what it was. Because of the limited psychological sophistication of the ancients they anthropomorphized everything around them and dealt with reality to the best of their knowledge. Hence the myths/stories/religion.
I fail to see how you don't see the constantly occurring pattern between knowledge and belief and how inversely proportional they are. Humans at one point BELIEVED that the earth was flat. Not only that, they also BELIEVED that it was the centre of the universe. What does that tell you about the psychological evolution of human thinking?
And to Ringo..I love Hockey night in Canada!! but Thomas was skeptical before, to be skeptical again only shows that either something was fake about JC (which you mention) or that this whole story of Thomas is a concocted one meant to serve as the logical guarantee that the religion will flourish. Of course this is all obvious to you so I won't delve into it any more.
Finally to Phat: These stories speak to humanity because it was MADE BY humanity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 10-21-2007 5:27 PM jar has not replied

  
Spektical
Member (Idle past 5996 days)
Posts: 119
Joined: 10-16-2007


Message 118 of 185 (429783)
10-21-2007 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by crashfrog
10-21-2007 6:08 PM


Re: JC Did Not Exist!
As well as infinite nothingness. Our microscopes have not yet been able to identify what smaller elements make up the constituents of atoms. Essentially it could go on forever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by crashfrog, posted 10-21-2007 6:08 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 10-22-2007 3:19 AM Spektical has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 185 (429801)
10-21-2007 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by crashfrog
10-21-2007 4:05 PM


Re: JC Did Not Exist!
It's the only source that says what it says, NJ. There's no other source of Jesus's words except the Bible, and the people who are quoting the Bible. So, no, it's not consistent with any other source; in fact, it's completely inconsistent with all other sources.
Crash, the gospel is a compilation of people testifying about Jesus. Its not one source, its multiple sources. And then there are the extra-biblical sources which only further corroborate his existence. The current argument spun by Spektical is that Jesus is purely mythical.
There are no other sources that corroborate the Bible, just other writers who quote the Bible. Consistent with itself?
Again, you are thinking in terms of the Bible already being composed as a unified work. There was no such thing as the Bible in their day. At most, the only codified writings were the Pentateuch, and that's it. The compiling came long after.
The only prophecies the Bible lives up to are the ones that are in the Bible; that's hardly indicative of anything. Hell, even in Lord of the Rings Tolkein writes prophecy in the beginning that is fulfilled by the end. Why would that be significant? Even the ancient Greeks knew that "prophecy" was a mug's game, and there's a hundred books on how to fake prophecy. (Hint - be as vague as possible.)
Here is a copy and paste of some data I compiled about two years ago:
-Isaiah 52:12 and 53:13
    Here we see that the Messiah has a father/son bond that cannot be broken. You may have noticed that it says, when He does wrong, I will punish Him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. Jesus was completely sinless. He never did wrong, but for our sake, He became sin. Sin must be atoned for by blood. Halacha (Jewish Law) makes this very clear. God cannot overlook sin for the sake of justice. However, because of His mercy, God Himself became the propitiation of sin as the only acceptable sacrifice. Because Jesus did this, it is as if Father momentarily looked away from the Son. Therefore, we know from the gospels that Jesus was inflicted with some of the most horrific beatings ever endured by anyone. Romans were champions at torture. They employed some of the most painful tactics ever devised by man’s reprehensible mind.
    The carnage against Him was so awful that Isaiah prophesied, that, “His body would be marred more than any other man.” His beating was so profound that He literally was a lump of flesh and blood. On the cross He would prophetically cry out, “Eloi, eloi, lama sabachtani?” which in Aramaic, means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken Me?” When Abraham was asked to sacrifice his only son, God did not allow him to complete the task, because He had, no intention of having Abraham complete this. God stopped Abraham and told him that He would provide for Himself an acceptable sacrifice. This ancient story was a shadow of what God was going to do for mankind out of His abundant love in the distant future. Jesus was the acceptable sacrifice, provided by God, Himself. And all of it was done for you and me.
    Therefore, once again, the Messiah is God, and God the Messiah. This is the very gift of salvation spoken throughout the New Testament that God had in mind from the beginning. Despite all of this amazing prophecy, most Rabbinical scholars seem confused about this prophecy. They know this is a messianic prophecy, but seem unable to understand the breadth of what God has had in mind for His chosen one’s since the beginning. Probably the main reason why most do not believe Jesus was the Messiah is that He did not establish peace on earth. What they fail to realize is that His return is imminent, and though it tarries, God is not slack on His promises.
    Jesus is Mashiac ben Yosef, and so died on that account that it might be counted as righteousness on our behalf, if we accept this gift. He poured out His life unto death to us all, and yet, not a single one of us is deserving of it. And when the last individual comes to Christ, He will return for His bride. And we will see the glory of His kingdom and the fulfillment of His promise when Jesus comes as Mashiac ben David. The belief that Jesus died, resurrected, and will come again for His bride, is not merely a Christian extrapolation.
      Jesse was David’s father. Therefore, when it speaks a Branch, it is referring to Davidic lineage. The Gentiles, such as myself, will follow Him, to the Place He has prepared for us. In addition, He will return to gather the ”elect’, that is, those who have willfully chosen to follow Him, instead of the world. Those who died before second coming are already with Him, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” Therefore, those who are still on the earth in those days shall be taken to Him.
      As we have read, there is no greater a candidate for Messiahship than that of Jesus. Here’s the fact: Jesus Christ of Nazareth, is truly, truly, truly, the Mashiac. Whether we believe or not, is inconsequential to it’s truthfulness. Furthermore, He is coming back, despite all of what some mockers will say otherwise. I have personally counted 317 messianic prophecies of the Old Testament that have been, or have nearly been fulfilled in the New Testament.
      Perhaps, one of my favorite prophecies is the spelling out of the gospel, starting from day one, showing us God’s plan from the very beginning. In Genesis, chapter 5, we see here a list of names from Adam to Noah. This appears to be the genealogy of the very first generations of men, and indeed, it is. However, there is more than meets the eye. For the most part, and particularly in ancient times, Hebrew names all meant something. That is to say, their names took on an attribute in the form of a verb, noun, or adjective. Similarly, we see the same type of names given in many Native American cultures. When we translate the names to their original denotation, we see an integrated message, spelled out.
      Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow; (but) the Blessed God shall come down teaching (that) His death shall bring the despairing rest.
      Because this genealogy comes directly from the Torah, it is undisputed that this could not be some insertion made by Christians. This demonstrates that from the beginning, the omniscient God of all that is, had this love story in mind before the creation of the universe. This is a love story, penned in blood on a wooden cross. Very clearly, we see a supernatural engineering, proving that what is written in the Word is above all, trustworthy.
      One of my favorite messianic prophecies comes from Luke’s gospel. It was only until recently that, I stumbled across this passage. I probably overlooked numerous times, simply because I did not cross-reference the book of Isaiah. When I understood the true meaning of the passage that I had glanced over before, I was awestruck at its messianic significance.
      What in the world does that mean? Why did He pick that particular verse and not finish reading what was written? And what did it mean that ”today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.’ How was it fulfilled? In order to answer that, we should find the place where He was reading in Isaiah.
        What does that mean? What is the significance? God, speaking through Isaiah is telling His people, 760 years before Jesus would walk the earth, that the Gentiles would follow Him and that they would prosper, but His own people would be in derision. This is exactly what we have seen for the last 2,000 years. Isaiah is describing the church-age and how God would prosper in the hearts of true Christians who obeyed His voice. So, when Jesus stood up to read the first portion of Isaiah, it describes Mashiac ben Yosef, the suffering servant.
        Jesus, we know from the gospels, would fulfill this time in that generation. Jesus read this portion because His ministry had begun as the suffering servant. He sat down at the exact moment that Isaiah then describes Mashiac ben David, because His time as the Glorious Messiah would come later. So truly, there are not two separate messiahs, but rather, two separate times that He would appear in history in order to fulfill what was written by the prophets.
        Finally, one of the most remarkable prophecies recorded in the Bible comes to us from Daniel, written 600 years before Jesus’ time. God instructed Daniel when the approximate date that Mashaic ben Yosef would be cut off for our sins. The passage in Daniel, chapter 9, is somewhat cryptic and ambiguous. Nonetheless, the message has not been dulled and only an omnipotent God could engineer such a masterpiece. This passage gives us a timeline for much of what God would be doing with the nation of Israel and the Messiah. In their apostate condition, Israel had been taken to Babylon. God told the nation Israel that they would be in captivity for seventy years.
        A remnant of people would come back at the appointed time under Ezra in order to rebuild Solomon’s Temple. However, permission to rebuild the Temple was given to King Artaxerxes, which secular history places it around 447 to 445 BC. Seventy weeks are described in Daniel’s prophetic book. The best translation of the word, though, is best described, simply as ”seven.’ The timeframe described is ”seventy sevens.’ When we think of the number seven, most of us probably correlate it to weeks.
        As it turns out, God has in mind, years, and not literal days. Thus, we are talking about a total period of approximately 490 years (490 = 70 x 7), hence, seventy sevens. According to the table, it would take 7 weeks, that is, 49 years, to complete the rebuilding of the second Temple. After this time there would be another 62 weeks, or (434 years) until the Messiah would be killed. The death of the Messiah would accomplish all kinds of things and directly form the Scriptures to verifiable history; this is the closest approximation we could possibly get. Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem occurred 173,880 days (483 x’s the Hebrew 360 day, year). Jesus Christ fits so amazingly well into this timeline, that given this piece of Scripture alone, we should know beyond all reasonable doubt that Jesus truly is the Messiah. You see, anyone hoping that the Messiah was not, Jesus, must find another Jewish man who comes from the line of David, but that can supersede the curse of Jehoiachin, who was born of a virgin, out of the Tribe of Judah and that comes from Bethlehem in this exact period of time. All I have to say, is, good luck. When we left off from the book of Daniel, the days were calculated in the following manner: 445 BC to 32 AD, is 476 years. Multiply these years according to the Julian calendar of 365 days per year. This amounts to 173,740 days. Add 116 days for the corrected number of leap years and the difference of 24 days between March 14th and April 6th, reckoning inclusively to Jewish practice. Thus, the total amounts to 173,880 days. From the time Daniel spoke this prophecy to the time of Jesus’ crucifixion, this formula is exacting.
        But, the prophecy concerning Jesus, the Mashiac, does not end here according to the Book of Daniel. There is, a final seven years that is unaccounted for, and this final lapse of time is extremely important to both you and I. In the next and final chapter of this book, we will see how everything we have been discussing ties in to one another. However, before I continue with this discourse, it is of great necessity that we clarify some issues concerning my Lord and King, Jesus Christ.
        AND THIS IS WHAT IS TO COME:
          Damascus is the capital of Syria and is said to be the oldest, continuously inhabited city in human history. ”Aroer’ is a city in south central Jordan. Both countries are staunchly opposed to Israel. We are currently unsure where this prophecy fits, as far as chronology is concerned. Nonetheless, the events described will take place. I personally feel that this event will precipitate the beginning of WWIII. With the newly acquired nuclear technology, at least in relation to all of human history, the world is constantly in fear of nuclear proliferation. Is it so impossible for us to conceive the plausibility of this given the current, hostile disposition of the Middle East? Certainly not! Ask any heads of nations today how serious of a threat this truly is, irrespective of whether they believe in Bible prophecy or not. I believe that his is the event that will unleash destruction on a level never before seen by mankind. Nations will take sides and make war with one another. When this dramatic, sequence of events takes place, the whole world take notice.
            For those who haven’t the spiritual discernment or those that lack the knowledge of this intellectual discourse have a difficult time understanding this passage. The book of Ezekiel is a tough read, unquestionably, without the foreknowledge of some scriptural foundation. Allow me to unravel this mystery to greater serve the reader. To understand the significance of the names listed, we have to go back to the beginning. In Genesis 10, we have listed the Table of Nations. All the names listed are progenitors of nations and people groups.
            This brings us to the other names listed in this prophecy. The next set of nations will stand with Israel and apparently will come to her aid when the invasion begins.
            Sheba and Dedan: (Saudi Arabia) These were the names of cities located in what is now Saudi Arabia. It is unclear why Saudia Arabia would show contempt towards the actions of these mostly Muslim nations. In all actuality, the Saudi’s routinely have some of the highest percentages of terrorist cells in the world. We do know, however, that Saudi Arabia is also the most Westernized of all the Muslim nations and has done it’s part in thwarting terrorism. It is unclear if they will fight against the invaders or sit quietly on the sidelines. In either case, they will question the actions of its neighbors in days to come.
            Tarshish: (Britain) The theory concerning Tarshish is one that has been debated for a long time. Without going into a huge discourse, most scholars are firm on the belief that it is speaking of either Spain or Britain, or perhaps, both. Some scholars suggest that ”Kittim’ is Spain’s Biblical reference and that Tarshish, then, must definitely be the UK. In Ezekiel’s prophecy, there is also mention that Tarshish, and her young lions will engage the enemies of Israel, as well. We can only logically assume that this is speaking of the branches of either Spain (Mexico, Argentina, Columbia, etc) and/or Britain (United States, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, etc). This battle, however, should not be confused with the battle of Armageddon, or Har-Magedon in Hebrew. This is only a taste of the Tribulation that will befall on all of those who remain on the earth. From this preemptive battle, of the world’s population will die, which makes us wonder if nuclear weaponry is employed for there to incur such a high number of casualties.
            A question you might be asking yourselves is, “When will this happen and what will be the signs of the times?” This is an excellent question and one that was posed to Jesus by His disciples. Jesus elucidates for us in the gospel of Matthew.
              Jesus makes it quite clear that we do not the exact time of His coming, but that we can have an estimation based on the events that begin to unfold by watching the things that come to pass. It is with mixed feelings that I report to you that all of the things that were to pass, have passed, for the rapture of the church to happen. After the terrible persecution of the Jews under the Nazi regime, the Allied Forces defeated Germany and its axis of evil. The world did not know where to place the remnant of Jews. It was a joint effort between England and the United States who established the Balfour Declaration.
              Under this edict, the Jews would again become, Israeli’s, uniting them under one nation, just as their forefathers were. After many reports throughout the centuries, it was clear that the land of Palestine was little more than a Middle Eastern squat, owned by the Ottoman empire and inhabited by Bedouins and other sojourners who had no real intention of establishing or legitimizing the land. It was only until, Israel repatriated that the Arab world would oppose it so strongly, kindling the ancient sibling rivalry that dates back to Abraham, through Isaac and Ishmael. The only thing I can liken this rivalry to, are little children fighting over a toy. Suppose one of my two kids has a certain toy that he or she never plays with anymore. When their sibling goes to play with the toy, then, and only then, does this toy become so utterly important to them. All of a sudden, it becomes a travesty that their sibling is using the toy despite their lack of zeal for it prior, to that time. Catch my drift? This is what has happened in Palestine in the late 40’s and that is continuing with its venom to this day.
                  After the Rapture it is understood that with this many people gone, unexplainably through secular eyes, the world economy will take a nosedive. The nations greatest affected will be the nations that follow God en masse, because a high percentage of them will no longer exist in the earthly realm. Life will become difficult for a small season. In the middle of the 70th week, a European man will come to pick up the pieces. He will work to consolidate the nations and to unify countries into one conglomerate. We already see this kind of unification taking place in Europe with the European Union (EU) and the United Nation (UN). With the exception of England, all of Europe uses the Euro as it’s main form of currency. This consolidation of countries will spread worldwide. The economy will bounce back and it will be life as usual, if not better than it is now.
                  A sense of peace and prosperity will be enjoyed for approximately 3 times. The word times is difficult to translate in the Bible. It is estimated to be about a year, but the Bible is very careful not to use the word, year. Nevertheless, this just further confirms that Daniel’s prophecy was all the more accurate, because 3 times 2, equals 7. Therefore, this man will be highly venerated and his approval rating will likely be higher than any other that preceded him will. He will essentially be worshiped, as if, to a god. He even establishes a synthetic peace with Israel and works to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem. This man is none other than the antichrist.
                    Many people have claimed evil dictators to be the anti-christ, such as Hitler or Stalin, however, the Scriptures make it clear that this man will be loved by many nations. He will be a bastian of hope for the world and will deceive many. After 3 times, he will show his true nature and the Jews, in particular, as well as the rest of the Tribulation saints (those that have turned to Jesus after the Rapture: which many of you may become) will begin to understand his deception. He will trample the Holy city (Jerusalem) for forty-two months. During that length of time, God will provide for Himself, ”two witnesses’ who will prophesy and preach the gospel for 1,260 days in sackcloth and ashes. They will no doubt speak against the antichrist and will serve as a warning to the people of the world. No one knows who the two witnesses will be. Some speculate that it will be Enoch and Elijah, because they never physically died, and it is appointed unto every man to die a physical death. Others say that it is John the Baptist and Moses. Regardless, these are mighty men of God who are to be revered and their instructions taken to heart. At this time, this pseudo-peace will soon end, and when it does, the earth will experience an extreme chaos never seen before, nor, will ever be seen again.
                      This picture, no doubt, is referring to the nation Israel, who is coming to their senses. They know the man that the world is worshiping is an idol, and worship belongs to the Lord alone. They will seek refuge in a sanctuary in which to honor, praise, and pray to God. Just prior, to this occurance, the third Temple will be erected in Jerusalem. But the man of lawlessness; the son of perdition; the anti-christ,’ will set up the abomination that causes desolation.
                      The imnportant thing to remember is that eventually Israeli's en masse will come to their senses, thus fulfilling the following prophecy:
                        All this will come to pass, either in this generation or one to come. Given the headlines on the news, we are perhaps right on the very cusp of this reality. Food for thought.
                        -Zechariah 12:10
                        Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : Edit to add captions
                        Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : Edit to add

                        "It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

                        This message is a reply to:
                         Message 99 by crashfrog, posted 10-21-2007 4:05 PM crashfrog has replied

                        Replies to this message:
                         Message 120 by Spektical, posted 10-21-2007 8:36 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
                         Message 122 by crashfrog, posted 10-21-2007 8:55 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
                         Message 136 by arachnophilia, posted 10-21-2007 11:09 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
                         Message 146 by Brian, posted 10-22-2007 4:33 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

                          
                        Spektical
                        Member (Idle past 5996 days)
                        Posts: 119
                        Joined: 10-16-2007


                        Message 120 of 185 (429802)
                        10-21-2007 8:36 PM
                        Reply to: Message 119 by Hyroglyphx
                        10-21-2007 8:30 PM


                        Re: JC Did Not Exist!
                        Have you ever heard of the Naga Hammadi scrolls NJ? If you haven't look it up its very interesting.
                        Its true that the bible is a compilation of writings, but at the same time there were many writings that were excluded from it. What is the reason for this?

                        This message is a reply to:
                         Message 119 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-21-2007 8:30 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

                        Replies to this message:
                         Message 121 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-21-2007 8:49 PM Spektical has not replied

                          
                        Newer Topic | Older Topic
                        Jump to:


                        Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

                        ™ Version 4.2
                        Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024