Christmas Star Explained

That's what I'm saying. Simple claimed that thousands of people saw the star. I said that the Bible says nothing of the kind. The embellishment is in the Iliad. It doesn't need simple adding anything about Achilles' wheels.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
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ad-hoc and doesn't follow. still not a spaceship. er, no. you missed the point. herod asked what time. time is an important point in astronomy, because the earth rotates. stars/constellations/etcs are only available to be seen in the sky for a certain time of night. that tells us that herod sure thought they meant a fixed astrological event. actually, you could find my address in a phonebook in a coffeeshop. i'm not even sure what you think you're saying. but the only evidence mounting is evidence of your state of mind. no, simple. your case. not the bible. your case. the records i'm looking at are the bible. they don't support your case. i'm not sure why you think the bible is automatically on your side, and anyone who argues against your silly reading of it must be challenging the bible. no, i'm challenging you on the basis of the bible. the time they went to see jesus is actually irrelevent, and the bible does not make it totally clear either way. in any case, people who study astrology would almost certainly record an event they saw as significant. the information they gathered from the star would have led them to israel, even if it took them several years to get there. why was it leading them the verse before they saw it? stars disappear every morning. you've probably noticed that by now in your life. if not, go outside when the sun is out and look for stars. see any? even if it weren't for the sun, the planet rotates. simple, i'm a christian. you wanna try some other line than me hating christians? and still, remember, you're talking about jews forging the old testament. think about that for a second, because i'm now going to bring it up any time you cite any verse in the old testament. ok. let's try this again. the first place it's not recorded as being in the temple is in the bible. it's not carried off into exile. second temple records are irrelevent -- the records for it stop before the destruction of the first temple. it goes missing before the exile. ad-hoc anti-semitic conspiracy theories don't count as "covered." but they did. what happened to the ark when the babylonians invaded? the bible doesn't say. why not? surely, the evil jewish conspiracy editted that, too. tell that to the people who live in israel and palestine. see, the "peace" that zechariah talks about isn't just a few good vibes here and there -- he talks about destroying all the impliments of war because there is no longer need for them. total and complete peace on earth. zechariah 9 is not fulfilled until that point. ...which hasn't happened yet. actually, that's sort of backwards. the messiah will be the one that builds the third temple, but there will be no need for animal sacrifices. um, actually, it's not. you should try reading the bible more. not just quote-mining and reading-into it. read it calmly, and coolly and not looking for anything specific -- you'll find it's a much better book than you realized. are you going to tell me that every king of judah ruled from a UFO? what about the kings of israel? did they rule from a second UFO? regardless, "the angel of the lord" is a unique and solitary figure. you should revelation again in regards to the afterlife.

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because they were not men who were wise. they were magi.magicians... astrologers.

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herod the great has a bad rep in the bible. afterall, he was a crazed madman. but so where a lot of leaders in the roman empire, and he wasn't nearly as bad as caligula...in any case, appart from tyrannical rule, herod the great was also "the great." he spent a lot of his time commissioning architecture in and around jerusalem. this is the man responsible for building the second temple, among other things.

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Ok, I don't even know why I'm arguing with you anymore, considering the fact that we're both practically saying the same thing.Peace!

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Disclaimer:

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Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

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He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

other than the gospel of matthew, there is no other reference for this ever actually happening. the other gospel that covers similar subject matter, luke, doesn't see fit to mention it. and luke (not having been there) went out of his way to research all the available stories (as he says in his intro) and be the most comprehensive source. it's not mentioned in any of the early apocrypha. or by josephus. or by anyone, really.the only place a similar story appears is in the book of exodus -- pharaoh similarly kills all the jewish babies of a certain age but moses escapes unharmed. god later returns the favor, and kills all the egyptian first born sons.i'm not saying it didn't happen. just that it's very suspicious that luke at least does not mention it, and the literary reference is rather obvious. "moses" and "messiah" have the same root in hebrew. herod certainly was capable of killing innocent children who posed a threat to his throne (history records one such incident) but on a more specific and smaller scale. we're talking a forgotten genocide here.

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*dies laughing*

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actually, you have not effectively demonstrated who or what "shiloh" means in this context. you quoted a few sources that said "obviously it's the messiah" and a few that pointed out the aramaic translators thought it meant "messiah."

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you then used that information to turn this into a messianic prophecy. it's not. it's a prophecy/birthright given to judah. "until shiloh comes" is an idiom for "until the end." the end has not happened yet -- this makes a lot more sense when you understand that the jewish concept of the messiah has more in common with the second coming of christ than the first.

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and in any case, the verse is about judah's royalty. not jesus. not a UFO. judah's royalty.

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I listed several bible commentaries that said Shiloh was accepted as Jesus. By the way, the end started at the time of Jesus, the last few thousand years of history. There is a period of a few years at the very very end, just before He returns that many often refer to as the end as well. Both are correct in context.The full meaning of the star prophesy verse in relation to Israel is a matter of opinion, and not necessarily totally wrapped up in it's little kings only.

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no, as i keep pointing out, those groups of angels are different. you can't simply ignore that. you are trivializing the appearance of the heralding angels at christ's birth.

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Says who, and how would know which angels were on the scene?? One minute you cite the angel of the Lord as being Jesus, but I read this, and wonder at your claims.Mt 2:13 - And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.What, Jesus appeared in a dream to His dad, now??? - Unless they are named, like Gabriel, etc, how would you know who it is??

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i agree, your point is silly. if they wanted to describe a spaceship -- couldn't they have given a description even remotely like ezekiel's?

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The mobile throne appeared in Ezekiel closer at hand, and I think in the daytime, so it was not looked on as a star. That would be more like the shining light thing the shepherds saw.
The Sceptre, as I call it, when way up in the sky at night, could be called a star. Basic geometry, to some extent.Geometry (Greek ; geo = earth, metria = measure) is a part of mathematics concerned with questions of size, shape, and relative position of figures ...Why not admit that a starship of the Father fits the bill here, like nothing else could! Not a nova, or classical star, or comet, etc. It also fits the famous star prophesy.

A starship, not as high, that was blinding them with light might be hard to pin as a star. Knowing the Sceptre, it may even have been cloaked!!! Eyes only!! Funny how God reveals some things on a need to know basis. They didn't need to know all that at the time.

...yes, and i point out why those were neccessarily wrong, and a misunderstanding of the idiom. oh, that's apologetic nonsense. the world's only been around for 6,000 years. abraham was only 4,000 years ago, and the last 2,000 years have been "the end times?" that's a strange division. says the bible. on both accounts. ...no, i mentioned that many fundamentalists happen to think that, and you'll find more support for that point than your silly UFO stuff. they happen to be wrong too. and that's one of the many reasons why. you still don't know what "sceptre" means, do you? because "starship" is a piss-poor reading of ezekiel. reading it into other texts where it doesn't fit is just INSANE.look. astrologers came to see jesus. why would astrologers come? why would astrologers know that a king had been born in israel? why would herod, upon hearing this, ask the astrologers what time the astrological event appeared in the sky, as if it were an astrological event? spaceship ≠ star

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god is a klingon! that explains so much.as we'd say in hebrew, — or, QAPLA'!

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An angel and a heavenly host are mentioned. There's no mention at all of any vehicle transporting them, nor is there any mention of anything that could be remotely interpreted as a star. Then the contents (angel and heavenly host) would have been cloaked too, else the cloaking would be useless. Funny how He reveals certain delusions to you and you alone. Need-to-be-deluded, I guess.Edited by Ringo, : Removed nonsensical subtitle. Note to self: learn to compose subtitles.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

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Because a new star was there. A special star.
"regarded the star as a miraculous sign given by God to mark the birth of the Christ (or Messiah). Ancient theologians claimed that the star fulfilled several prophecies, including the Star Prophecy."

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...with respect to the appearance of a star at the birth of Jesus there is a prophecy of Balaam recorded by Moses to this effect: There shall arise a star out of Jacob, and a man shall rise up out of Israel.[22]
Star of Bethlehem - Wikipedia

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So, they likely knew of the scriptures, and the famous star prophesy. When they saw the special starship, sapphire throne of the Father over the birth sight, they knew this was it!?

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ad-hoc and doesn't follow. still not a spaceship.

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It is reasonable to assume that wise men of neighboring countries would have some concept, or limited knowledge of prophesy of Israel. I don't live there, and am not even that wise, but could tell you a lot about prophesy concerning Israel. How obvious is that???

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er, no. you missed the point. herod asked what time. time is an important point in astronomy, because the earth rotates. stars/constellations/etcs are only available to be seen in the sky for a certain time of night. that tells us that herod sure thought they meant a fixed astrological event.

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Er, NO. The psycho sounded like he didn't have much of a clue about the sky, or care less. If He knew exactly when the star appeared, that might tell him when the child was born!!! As evidence of this, ho old were the kids he then proceeded to order whacked?? I rest my case.

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no, simple. your case. not the bible. your case. the records i'm looking at are the bible. they don't support your case. i'm not sure why you think the bible is automatically on your side, and anyone who argues against your silly reading of it must be challenging the bible. no, i'm challenging you on the basis of the bible.

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You call it that??? OK.

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why was it leading them the verse before they saw it? stars disappear every morning. you've probably noticed that by now in your life. if not, go outside when the sun is out and look for stars. see any? even if it weren't for the sun, the planet rotates.

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Because they had seen it, and it did lead them. Possibly it wasn't there for a bit, so they asked for directions locally? But, when they needed it, fleeing Herod, there it was again. That would explain why they were so tickled. Not just that another evening was coming.

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um, actually, it's not. you should try reading the bible more. not just quote-mining and reading-into it. read it calmly, and coolly and not looking for anything specific -- you'll find it's a much better book than you realized.

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The 'false' referred to your spin, and chosen interpretation. Not that some king died a certain year.

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simple, i'm a christian. you wanna try some other line than me hating christians? and still, remember, you're talking about jews forging the old testament. think about that for a second, because i'm now going to bring it up any time you cite any verse in the old testament.

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No, I am not talking about the bible, as I thought I said. I am talking about other records, that would tell of things like the ark still being around, or the veil being ripped.

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ok. let's try this again. the first place it's not recorded as being in the temple is in the bible. it's not carried off into exile. second temple records are irrelevent -- the records for it stop before the destruction of the first temple. it goes missing before the exile.

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The things that were taken were returned, according to this link."Neither is it mentioned in the lists of things brought back from Babylon in Ezra 1:7-1:11. Since we are told in Jeremiah 28:3 that everything taken to Babylon from the "house of the Lord" would be returned, and since the Ark wasn't among the returned items, this proves that it was never taken to Babylon ."http://www.wyattnewsletters.com/ArkCov/history.htm"The apocryphal book of II Maccabees (2:1-8) says that the prophet Jeremiah hid the Ark and the golden altar of incense in a cave on Mt. Nebo before the Babylonian exile. Jeremiah was taken to Tahpanhes in Egypt by a remnant of the Jews after the fall of Jerusalem (Jeremiah 42:1-43:7) , so it is conceivable that he secured the Ark in a cave on the way. Others say it is more likely that the Ark would be hidden under the Temple Mount or elsewhere in Jerusalem than on Mt. Nebo, which is about 40 miles East of Jerusalem. .. "http://www.templemount.org/TMTRS.htmlThe only real thing that makes it supposedly a mystery, is the lack of records about it entering the second temple! Those records were likey under the authority of the ones I mentioned. No???

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An angel and a heavenly host are mentioned. There's no mention at all of any vehicle transporting them, nor is there any mention of anything that could be remotely interpreted as a star.

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How would they see it with the great light that shone down??? They could still hear, and a lot of people and or angels were up there doing the Glory to God in the Highest number. You may propose another way they got, and stayed up there for their gig. Obviously they took their show in the road, how did they get there? We know God has wheels, so why not give them a lift??

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Then the contents (angel and heavenly host) would have been cloaked too, else the cloaking would be useless.

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They were not cloaked FROM the shepherds, on the contrary, that was who they decided to appear TO. The hearing shows there were real beings in earshot. But the great light that shone, means that a starship would not likely be seen. The cloaking would be from others, that they were no revealing themselves to, and putting the sound and light show on for!

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Funny how He reveals certain delusions to you and you alone. Need-to-be-deluded, I guess.

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The Christmas star is known worldwide. So is the wheels and sapphire throne, to a degree. The clues and pieces are all there, I just try and put them together when possible, using what evidence there is, and the bible.The evidence is that the Christmas star could not have been an astronomical event.

God and spirits are known to disguise themselves, only revealing themselves to those people that they want to. That is basic bible, like Jesus did after He arose, or the angel making the donkey talk did, and etc. It is a motis operendi of spiritual folk.