Christmas Star Explained

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you have not established that one has anything to do with the other.

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It is a known bible fact about the Father having wheels, and the star could not have been an astronomical event. It was not seen worldwide, and it had qualities like guiding people.

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i'm sorry, but that comment border on antisemitism. that's absolutely disgusting -- not to mention completely bogus.

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The bible does say that veil was torn. The Jewish leaders of the time are recorded as being liars by the mouth of no less than Jesus, and documented trying to pay people to bear false witness. Sorry if the truth hurts. Call it what you will.

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no, read the bible more carefully. the ark is not in the jewish records of what was carried off into exile in babylon. it disappears from history more than five hundred years before that.

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Whose history? It never disappeared from ours, it is in heaven. True, some feel that the ark 'must' be something else, but nevertheless, it is there as we speak. Whose records!!??? That is precisely my point. Have we records other than from Israel, of the ark??? No. So all that is 'missing' is the records of those that had Jesus killed. As I said those are expected to be missing, the ark itself is not at all missing, and is accounted for. As I read the bible, there it is, as plain as day in heaven, safe and sound.

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almost certainly. the general consensus is that it was hidden somewhere.

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That is the tale, but it is a myth. Absolutely. It is off topic, but I will say that I think a replica was made, and ended up in Ethiopia. I also think that came back to Israel in the operation to rescue black Jews, in the airlift, as a Canadian diplomat talked about in Grant Jeffries old book. (He thought it was the real deal, but that is a linger story)

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you don't listen to scholars. you listen to one site (it's all i've EVER seen you reference). and then you use that as a starting point, and come up with these crazy theories of yours. i think you would do quite well to listen to scholars and bible commentaries. lots of them.

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The material there, like commentaries, and dictionaries are simply popular tools, and are available on other sites, and in stores. Nothing unusual about eastons dictionary, or clark commentary, etc etc etc. [quote] The One on the throne was Him, why grasp at straws?? He has wheels, that is no secret.

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that's NOT my opinion only. that is the most obvious reading of the text, and the one you will find in almost ANY bible commentary you choose to look at. and if you don't find that one, you'll find the other (affliction) one.

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Since that verse, and prophesy are really not at all fully understood, the standard takes on it really do not amount to much. Following them will lead on also to not know.We know when Shiloh came. The rest is pretty simple, when you know the key to the passage.

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that's completely irrelevent. it's not talking about a physical object passed down from one generation to the next. it's talking about royalty. do you not understand what a symbol is?

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Could it be something like, say, if the starship of God, was what was used in the execution of His royal will, it later had the symbolism of a rod, or sceptre, or some such?? A mere shadow of the true, and ultimate reality? Could the symbolism of the Almight actively going somewhere, and doing something, have ended up represented by something a king held, when he wanted to act?? I mean symbolism is not something you own.

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there are also excuses for totally abusing the text to mean something it obviously does not. and this is one of them.

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On the contrary, looking down on Shiloh, and not departing till He came was a neat thing. Investing the authority or passing the baton to Jesus is scriptural. A Christmas star is scriptural. The wheels of God are bible. Seeing His son from afar is scriptural. The angels, in fact that sang, and appeared to the shepherds are a trait of God's wheels appearing!!!I mean this is almost obvious.Eze 3:12 Then the spirit took me up, and I heard behind me a voice of a great rushing, saying, Blessed be the glory of the LORD from his place. 13 I heard also the noise of the wings of the living creatures that touched one another, and the noise of the wheels over against them, and a noise of a great rushing.So, we had 'creatures' with wings, that praised God.
What do we see in Bethlehem, where this other mysterious 'star' was??
Luke 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, 14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

'Constellations, planets, and all heavenly bodies except the sun and the moon. '
Stars - Holman Bible Dictionary - A light in the night sky would be called a sky. You have a problem with that?

I did not embrace the non spiritual approach to a spiritual book, that you seemed to recommend. You admitted that you look just to the literary, and hebrew, etc, and scoff at the premise that the holy spirit is required to really understand it. That is patently false. That is unbiblical.It is only God that reveals a thing. Jesus expounded many scriptures that the disciples had heard for many years, but never understood at all what they were reading.Mt 16:17 - And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.Lu 10:21 - In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?Now, if you have some point as to why a starship could not fit the bill, do tell. Edited by simple, : No reason given.

yes, we know about the merkabah. perhaps you should substantiate THAT point. why can't a star be an astronomical event? the magi came from a pretty fair distance. and stars aren't seen worldwide. our planet gets in the way. have you never heard of astrology? no, not that part. the part about them covering something up to make money. it reeks of "jewish conspiracy" stereotypes. you should be ashamed. real history. the kind written in books. and as much as i'll probably be flamed for saying it, books like the bible. your point is simply made up. the ark of the covenant stops being mentioned in the bible at the point of the babylonian exile. anything you attempted to claim after that point is simply unbiblical. what, like a UFO? hey, i solved the mystery! it's a UFO! and now the "christ-killers" argument. seriously though, are you hand waving at the bible now? you say you don't take the records in the bible seriously, because the jews killed jesus?you're digging your own grave here. you cannot one hand claim the divine authority and inerrancy of the bible, and one the other claim it as a deceptive and evil text written by the people who killed jesus. your claim is hypocritical, bigotted, and utterly disgusting. you should be ashamed of yourself. ...er, no. let's try this again. the last time the ark is mentioned is in the context of solomon's temple. it is not among the things carried into babylon. now revelation mentions it in heaven. in the endtimes. but currently, it is missing. it is dubious, but the ethiopians make one claim to have it. it's about as well supported by evidence as your arguments -- nobody's ever seen it. you mean operation solomon? i had the great honor of talking to the man responsible for that. he came and spoke to my hebrew class. it seemed like they just barely got out of there with their lives intact, and spent all of the time actually rescuing people (and even then not saving everyone). it sure didn't seem like they had time go check out any militarily guarded arks. ok, and also no reason you shouldn't look at all available sources of knowledge on the subject. not fully understood by you, maybe. that has been evident by your mangling of it. you're still assuming that shiloh = jesus. demonstrate that point -- because it seems that "shiloh" more likely refers to the endtimes. which, as cool as jesus was, he hasn't brought about just yet. what is it with you and UFOs being the key to everything? not everything relates to spaceships. i promise.we're not talking highly advanced symbolism here. "sceptre" relates to power. "throne" relates to power. it can be used to talk about god's power. or a king's power. it has nothing to do with spaceships. your wording is highly ironic. "passing the baton" is exactly what we're talking about here. "baton" is a better comparison to "sceptre" than "spaceship" is. it's the symbol of authority. the verse is talking about judah having authority. period. none of this garbage about spaceships. this isn't "bible: the mashup remix." you can't just randomly combined out of context verses and pretend they match up.the verse says that judah's tribe will be royal, and will rule until the end of time. you could make an argument for the "rod" having the other meaning if you'd like, but anything besides these two is a misreading. the angels in ezekiel didn't sing. and the angel (singular) that appeared to the shepherd in luke was a very special angel, "the angel of the lord." he was joined by a multitude of heavenly spirits -- not just three others exactly like him.they're different angels. i agree. it is. why aren't you getting it?

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yes. it's assuming a lot. and it still doesn't say "spaceship."

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if by "non spiritual" you mean "using your brain" then no, you evidently have not embraced that. no. i called you a hypocrite for using the holy spirit as an excuse to justify the absurd misreadings of the bible that you have been committing. and that's all that it is.let the holy spirit guide you all you want. but don't use it as excuse to lie in god's name. if you are being this mislead by a spirit, such that the bible does not actually mean what it says... then you are either not entirely right in the head, or the spirit you've been talking to goes by the name "liar" in greek and "adversary" in hebrew.because, what better goal for the king of lies and our adversary than to make the bible and its adherents seem this laughable? because it says a star. it is up to you to argue for your claim, not for me to argue against it. you made the claim, you support it.because otherwise, there's a million and one things that could also fit the bill.

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perhaps you should substantiate THAT point. why can't a star be an astronomical event?

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This star can't. This star was very special. It led a selected few to a house, it had angels singing glory to God near it, it was over the son of the Almighty. It was here, apparently for only a few years, and seems to possibly have disappeared for awhile, because the wise men were awfully glad to find it again.

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the magi came from a pretty fair distance. and stars aren't seen worldwide. our planet gets in the way.

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How come there are no records of your claim, then??

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no, not that part. the part about them covering something up to make money. it reeks of "jewish conspiracy" stereotypes. you should be ashamed.

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Human nature of the wicked heart of man. Cover ups. Not unique to a Jewish race, as we know. Even making money is done by others. And it would have been a Jewish leaders conspiracy that had Jesus arrested, that tried to get false witnesses, and some things that the bible talks about. They conspired. That is no secret.Mt 12:14 - But the Pharisees went out and conspired against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.I kid you not.

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and now the "christ-killers" argument. seriously though, are you hand waving at the bible now? you say you don't take the records in the bible seriously, because the jews killed jesus?

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The bible is God's records. What records in the bible do you think there are about the ark disappearing?

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you're digging your own grave here. you cannot one hand claim the divine authority and inerrancy of the bible, and one the other claim it as a deceptive and evil text written by the people who killed jesus. your claim is hypocritical, bigotted, and utterly disgusting. you should be ashamed of yourself.

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On the contrary, the things they did were all that. The fact that we should not trust their records of Jesus is evident.Mt 26:60 - But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,Matt 28:11 Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done. 12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers, 13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept. 14 And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you. 15 So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.That is who were in charge of the records.

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...er, no. let's try this again. the last time the ark is mentioned is in the context of solomon's temple. it is not among the things carried into babylon. now revelation mentions it in heaven. in the endtimes. but currently, it is missing.

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Missing from earth.Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:This is where it is in the vision of John thousands of years ago. He looked to the future, but there is no reason to assume it was not there since the veil was rent in the holy of holies, where it was kept. The moment Jesus died. No reason at all.

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you mean operation solomon? i had the great honor of talking to the man responsible for that. he came and spoke to my hebrew class. it seemed like they just barely got out of there with their lives intact, and spent all of the time actually rescuing people (and even then not saving everyone). it sure didn't seem like they had time go check out any militarily guarded arks.

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We don't know. All I can say, is that, if there was one, it was a replica.

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it is dubious, but the ethiopians make one claim to have it. it's about as well supported by evidence as your arguments -- nobody's ever seen it.

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They may have HAD a replica.

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you're still assuming that shiloh = jesus. demonstrate that point -- because it seems that "shiloh" more likely refers to the endtimes. which, as cool as jesus was, he hasn't brought about just yet.

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Ah, back close to topic, that's nice." "Our Lord's triumphant entry into Jerusalem, before his crucifixion, 'riding on an ass, even a colt the foal of an ass,' which by his direction his disciples brought to him for this purpose, 'Go into the village over against you, and presently ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her; loose them, and bring them to me,' Matthew 21:2-5, remarkably fulfilling the prophecy of Zechariah, 9:9) is no less a fulfillment of this prophecy of Shiloh, 'binding or tying his foal to the vine, even his ass's colt to the choice vine.' In ancient times to ride upon white asses or ass-colts was the privilege of persons of high rank, princes, judges, and prophets"
Genesis 49 - Clarke's Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org"until Shiloh come;
which all the three Targums interpret of the Messiah, as do many of the Jewish writers, ancient and modern F16; and is the name of the Messiah in their Talmud F17, and in other writings {r}; and well agrees with him, coming from a root which signifies to be "quiet", "peaceable", and "prosperous"; as he was of a quiet and peaceable disposition, came to make peace between God and men, and made it by the blood of his cross,"
Genesis 49 - Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org"until i Shiloh come; and unto him [shall] the gathering of the people [be].(i) Which is Christ the Messiah, the giver of prosperity who will call the Gentiles to salvation. "Genesis 49 - Geneva Study Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org"until Shiloh comes. Even under their foreign masters during this period, Israel had a limited right to self-rule, until in 7 A.D. Under Herod and the Romans, their right to capital punishment was taken away.ii. At the time, the rabbis considered it a disaster of unfulfilled Scripture. Seemingly, the last vestige of the scepter had passed from Judah, and they did not see the Messiah. Rabbis walked the streets of Jerusalem and said, "Woe unto us, for the scepter has been taken away from Judah, and Shiloh has not come." But had God's word been broken? No way!iii. Certainly, Jesus was alive then. Perhaps this was the very year He was 12 years old and discussing God's Word in the temple with the scholars of His day. Perhaps He was impressing them with His understanding of this very issue!"
David Guzik's Commentary - StudyLight.org10. until Shiloh come--Shiloh--this obscure word is variously interpreted to mean "the sent" (Joh 17:3), "the seed" (Isa 11:1), the "peaceable or prosperous one" (Eph 2:14) --that is, the Messiah (Isa 11:10; Ro 15:12);Genesis 49 - Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.orgHeavens, they all seem to agree on this point. Powerful stuff.

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we're not talking highly advanced symbolism here. "sceptre" relates to power. "throne" relates to power. it can be used to talk about god's power. or a king's power. it has nothing to do with spaceships.

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God and His sapphire throne moot that point.

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your wording is highly ironic. "passing the baton" is exactly what we're talking about here. "baton" is a better comparison to "sceptre" than "spaceship" is. it's the symbol of authority. the verse is talking about judah having authority. period. none of this garbage about spaceships. this isn't "bible: the mashup remix." you can't just randomly combined out of context verses and pretend they match up.

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the verse says that judah's tribe will be royal, and will rule until the end of time. you could make an argument for the "rod" having the other meaning if you'd like, but anything besides these two is a misreading.

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Basically I take it to mean the authority and presence of the Father. Whether you admit that that was often in the starship, as the bible says, and describes in detail, matters not! Dad was there looking down from afar as promised. Nice.

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the angels in ezekiel didn't sing. and the angel (singular) that appeared to the shepherd in luke was a very special angel, "the angel of the lord." he was joined by a multitude of heavenly spirits -- not just three others exactly like him.

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they're different angels.

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Do you really think that the angels riding with the Almighty were not angels of the Lord?? The common theme is praise.Oh, and the heavenly host was there as well!!!24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host:

ok, let's start with what the story says.

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Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

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Matthew 2:1-2

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they knew from the star that a king had been born to the jews. how would a spaceship tell them that? now, an astrological event would. put a star in alignment with jupiter and aries, and you have instant symbols for "king" and "jews" in the sky, that astrologers, like these magi, would recognize.

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Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.

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Matthew 2:7

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herod wants to know when he can look at see the star for himself. otherwise, the time reference means nothing. and i know what you're going to say:

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When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

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Matthew 2:9

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stars don't move. actually, they do. or rather, the earth does. and one's position on the earth does. and they seem to know they're going to bayit-lechem anyways. er, on the contrary. you have no records to support your claim. this bit about it disappearing for a few years? nothing in the bible. it was a sign that led the magi to christ. it wasn't there before, because its purpose was to announce the birth of christ. and the bit about the angels -- that's from luke, not matthew. one story is not the other story. anti-semitism is still anti-semitism. even if you hate everybody else too. ...none, actually. that's kind of the point. it disappears. it's in solomon's temple before the exile, but it's not carried off into exile -- there's no record of it being carried off into exile. if something happened to it, it happened in 586 BC. not 30 AD.the records that exist support that. they don't support it sticking around, unmentioned and un-stolen-by-the-babylonians and smuggled back into the second temple (which also has no record of it existing), to suddenly and coincidentally disappear at some other point. that's like arguing "i know nobody has seen jimmy hoffa for 30 years, but he really only went missing when bill clinton was elected."right. and then you claim conspiracy as an ad-hoc justification for your nonsense. er, no. this is where your racism and bigotry shows through. the parushim were one group of jews. and not the ones that wrote or were in charge of the records 600 years earlier regarding the ark of the covenant. even assuming that all the pharisees were evil -- that's not "any jew i care to point a finger at." jesus was a jew. matthew, mark, luke, and john were all jews. the apostle paul was a jew. peter was a jew. joseph of aramithea was a jew. moses was a jew. aaron was a jew. king david and king solomon were jews. samuel was a jew. isaiah and jeremiah, jews. ezekiel -- jew. see a pattern here?you cannot on the one hand claim to value the bible as god's inerrant word, and one the other claim that the evil jewish conspiracy has mucked around in it to hide the details that would support your nonsense. you cannot have it both ways. your hypocricy is laughable, but your bigotry is disgusting. ...revelation was only written about 2000 years ago. and it's a vision of the future for the most part. including chapter 11. we can't say anything, not even that. frankly i doubt anyone has it at the moment, and i will not randomly accept claims of "i have it but you can't see it" from anyone. not the ethiopians, not the scottish knights templar, and not your "secretly smuggled out replica" nonsense. what reason do you have to believe ANY of that stuff? err, that not exactly right. which is exactly the point. zechariah 9 is about the messiah. perhaps you'd better read the verse directly AFTER the oft-quoted one:

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And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off, and he shall speak peace unto the nations; and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.

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Zechariah 9:10

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god will destroy all impliments of war, and the messiah will bring peace to the entire world, and rule over everyone. now, since there's still war going on daily in israel, and the entire world isn't united in peaceful subordinance to jesus... he just doesn't fulfill that prophecy.and yes, that's the prophecy. not the donkey bit. wanna take a guess at how many people have ridden into jerusalem's east gate on a donkey? i'll place my guess in the billions. how many people have brought peace to the entire planet? no one. the person who does will fulfill that prophecy. that's why the term "shiloh" is thought to refer to the messiah -- the messiah brings peace, "shalom." i'd like to remind you that the last king of judah, zedekiah, died in approximately 586 bc. not 0 ad. not 30 ad. 586 bc -- in babylonian captivity. at that point the prophecy was broken. the idea of a messiah did not exist until the jews needed a new king. the messiah, by definition, is the judean king who re-fulfills this prophecy (and the similar one given to david). alive when? that doesn't even make sense. maybe they're all UFOs. look, they agree because they're towing the dogmatic line. their analysis does not agree with the text. people can sit around and nod their heads all they like, but you have to check it against reality and not just yes-men. *sigh* you just don't get it, do you?ezekiel's vision was a vision. and not the only vision of god. it doesn't mean that everytime you see anything relating the word "throne" you can read it as "spaceship." david sat on the throne in jerusalem. did he have a UFO too? which is not what it means. it means that judah will be royal. you can say that god gives that authority, maybe. but really his father israel does. and it says nothing about a spaceship. not even remotely. have you not heard the title "the angel of the lord" before? it's a very specific angel -- the one that speaks for god. he's a singular entity, and makes enough appearances and says enough godly things that you'll find a good number of fundamentalists who happen to think that "the angel of the lord" means "(precarnate) jesus." after all, he is the one that speaks for god, "the word" as it were. you will find much better support for that point than any of your nonsense. yes. host = alot. maybe even all the angels. not just four. it's one very special angel, who is then joined by lots of other angels. not four exactly equal angels with wheels under their feet.Edited by arachnophilia, : typo

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We do know who the Father is, and the son, Shiloh that was born where and when. Some light was in the sky, as evidenced by many witnesses. There was a heavenly host here, as well as the time God passed by on His starship or wheels.
We would look to finding out what is is, not having the bible say 'starship'. That is silly.

That's a good point. Actually, it doesn't seem that there were many witnesses:

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Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
Mat 2:3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

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It doesn't seem like Herod or anybody in Jerusalem had noticed the star before the wise men mentioned it. That suggests that it was an astrological "sign" more than a literal new light.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
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they knew from the star that a king had been born to the jews. how would a spaceship tell them that? now, an astrological event would. put a star in alignment with jupiter and aries, and you have instant symbols for "king" and "jews" in the sky, that astrologers, like these magi, would recognize.

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Because a new star was there. A special star.
"regarded the star as a miraculous sign given by God to mark the birth of the Christ (or Messiah). Ancient theologians claimed that the star fulfilled several prophecies, including the Star Prophecy."...with respect to the appearance of a star at the birth of Jesus there is a prophecy of Balaam recorded by Moses to this effect: There shall arise a star out of Jacob, and a man shall rise up out of Israel.[22]
Star of Bethlehem - WikipediaSo, they likely knew of the acripures, and the famous star prophesy. When they saw the special starship, sapphire throne of the Father over the birth sight, they knew this was it!?

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herod wants to know when he can look at see the star for himself. otherwise, the time reference means nothing. and i know what you're going to say:

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Ha. Another trait of spiritual beings, is that they can appear to certain people, and not to others. But, we can assume all saw the star for now. I don't see why not. A light over Israel does not clue one in to where the person is!!! That makes perfect sense. No more than a phone book in a coffee shop, clues us in to where you live.

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stars don't move. actually, they do. or rather, the earth does. and one's position on the earth does. and they seem to know they're going to bayit-lechem anyways.

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Ah, like in another thread I tried to point out that feature of the Sceptre. He can sit on the circle of the earth, and let an area move under Him if He wants. The evidence mounts.

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er, on the contrary. you have no records to support your claim. this bit about it disappearing for a few years? nothing in the bible. it was a sign that led the magi to christ. it wasn't there before, because its purpose was to announce the birth of christ. and the bit about the angels -- that's from luke, not matthew. one story is not the other story.

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The bible IS the record we have of the Christmas star. You have no records presented here to challenge it. Funny, that.The gospels are different people's recollections, and experiences of a big important event, and time. Some remember things as more important than other bits, to them. Also, the holy spirit quickened things to them, and may have wanted each man to bring out a few bits the others missed. Very well planned, this thing. Well supervised.About why I say it is possible that the star disappeared for awhile, remember, it was, depending on the account we read, some maybe 2 years or so, before the Magi went to the house of Jesus. Unlike the popular misconception, they never went to the stable.We read about the Magi being excited about seeing the star, and boogying right to little Jesus' house!
"Mt 2:9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was. 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. 11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. 12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way."Why, after say 2 years, seeing the star, would they be so absolutely tickled pink??

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anti-semitism is still anti-semitism. even if you hate everybody else too.

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Tossing a witness out of court, as reliable, because of documented fraud is something that can happen even to Jewish ones. Trying to make that something else is hatred of Christians.

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...none, actually. that's kind of the point. it disappears. it's in solomon's temple before the exile, but it's not carried off into exile -- there's no record of it being carried off into exile. if something happened to it, it happened in 586 BC. not 30 AD.

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No, that is simply the last recorded place it was in the bible, no?? I think it was in the second temple, and was carried off to heaven at the moment of Jesus' death. The records of it's existing were covered. We will just have to disagree.

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the parushim were one group of jews. and not the ones that wrote or were in charge of the records 600 years earlier regarding the ark of the covenant.

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Old records had no need of being touched, since they had nothing to do with it's disappearance.

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we can't say anything, not even that. frankly i doubt anyone has it at the moment, and i will not randomly accept claims of "i have it but you can't see it" from anyone. not the ethiopians, not the scottish knights templar, and not your "secretly smuggled out replica" nonsense. what reason do you have to believe ANY of that stuff?

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I have plenty. But it is not on topic.

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god will destroy all impliments of war, and the messiah will bring peace to the entire world, and rule over everyone. now, since there's still war going on daily in israel, and the entire world isn't united in peaceful subordinance to jesus... he just doesn't fulfill that prophecy.

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He did bring peace, and still does. That is why He is called the prince of Peace. The final fulfillment of that is when He brings in everlasting peace, and we allow war no more. But there is a sequence and order of events even in the old testament prophesy. For example, a final world leader will take away the daily animals sacrifices of the Jews. In other words. look for them to start killing animals again. Since that is a part of the temple stuff, I assume there will also be a temple. I believe there will be an ark of the covenant in the holy of holies there. Not the real one, of course, that is in heaven. As I explained, I have an idea what it will actually be.

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i'd like to remind you that the last king of judah, zedekiah, died in approximately 586 bc. not 0 ad. not 30 ad. 586 bc -- in babylonian captivity. at that point the prophecy was broken. the idea of a messiah did not exist until the jews needed a new king. the messiah, by definition, is the judean king who re-fulfills this prophecy (and the similar one given to david).

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False! Only in the way you like to limit what His sceptre means. I already explained how it was not only the kings rule of Israel, but the presence of Him, and His spirit, and His blessing of having them as His people. Also including, of course, the mobile sapphire throne, in fact, I think, especially referring to it.

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have you not heard the title "the angel of the lord" before? it's a very specific angel -- the one that speaks for god. he's a singular entity, and makes enough appearances and says enough godly things that you'll find a good number of fundamentalists who happen to think that "the angel of the lord" means "(precarnate) jesus." after all, he is the one that speaks for god, "the word" as it were. you will find much better support for that point than any of your nonsense.

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I don't agree. Maybe sometimes it could be, depends on the context. All angels that have His message speak His word.

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yes. host = alot. maybe even all the angels. not just four. it's one very special angel, who is then joined by lots of other angels. not four exactly equal angels with wheels under their feet.

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I think the host mostly refers to departed humans. We know there are plenty.

How many witnesses there were is unknown. To assume the wise men were the only ones is silly. There is no reason I see yet, to assume that there were not hundreds of thousands that saw the light. Not that they all knew what it was, but word likely spread fast.The reason the wise men followed the star, was because the thing led them right to the house. No astrological sign can do that.Edited by simple, : No reason given.

That's called "just making shit up." Well, first, it wasn't that easy. They even had to stop to ask directions, so the astrological sign is even more likely.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Not at all. If we put a light up in the sky over India, say, Bombay, we know that many thousands will see it. There was a light recorded, no making anything up, over the land where Shiloh was born.If you want to claim it was somehow not seen by anyone, you need to support that. Normally, night time stars or bright lights can be seen. That is usually a given. Support your claim there, don't just make uknowwhat up.

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The reason the wise men followed the star, was because the thing led them right to the house. No astrological sign can do that.

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Well, first, it wasn't that easy. They even had to stop to ask directions, so the astrological sign is even more likely.

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That was because the followed the star to the general area, it wasn't guiding them precisely yet. They seemed naive enough to think that the land of the king would be happy He was finally there!They were in for a rude awakening, and realized they had to sneak off another way, to fool the psycho king.The whole town was abuzz, because the famous star of 'Star Prophecy' was here.It was at that point that the ship guided them right to the house.Edited by simple, : No reason given.

Why was Herod (and all Jerusalem with him) "troubled" when the wise men asked about the star? If they had already seen it, why weren't they already troubled? What changed when the wise men came?

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
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