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Author Topic:   Can we be 100% sure there is/isn't a God?
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3805 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 38 of 110 (38692)
05-01-2003 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Flamingo Chavez
05-01-2003 4:22 PM


FC- It seems that your contention that God "allowed" [I assume you mean "created" but if not, allowing something to happen seems to point toward a God who is just a meddler or bystander and not actually a ominpotent/omniscient creator] the Big Bang to happen and let things unfold according to his natural laws but then later changes his mind (rather humanistic idea there vs. ominscient) or dcides to "work" a few miracles makes any God rather fallible and by definition not ominscient or omnipotent, which then would make God rather ungodlike. Why would God need to tinker with his creation if he was already Godlike? Being truly omniscient(is there any other type?) would make it unnecessary to meddle in natural events as all the workings of the universe would have been decided in advance. This in itself would make all events "predetermined" and I believe you could go further and say that this would create a predetermined destiny for all creatures as well.
I am sure this has been discussed more than once here on this board but it seemed what you were saying was such a rather obvious fallacy and contradictory statement that I thought I'd point it out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Flamingo Chavez, posted 05-01-2003 4:22 PM Flamingo Chavez has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Flamingo Chavez, posted 05-01-2003 10:45 PM DBlevins has replied

  
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3805 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 44 of 110 (38702)
05-01-2003 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Flamingo Chavez
05-01-2003 10:45 PM


FC - " IMO, being an evolutionary creationist, God allowed the Big Bang to happen and let things unfold according to his natural law. It would violate God's character to just arbitrarily mess around with his natural law."
DB- you stated above that God just doesn't mess around with his natural laws. Now wouldn't that be a contradiction for him to work miracles? see the contradiction below.
FC - "I assume God's natural law remains constant. There are a few exceptions to this however, any miracles talked about in the Bible for example..." also "Therefore, he had to defy his own natural law so that he could be in a relationship with his creation." or even "I believe God has a pretty good handle on what we will choose, but I do not think he knows exactly what I will do in every instance."
DB - The above is a contradiction of immense proportions. A Christian God who isn't omniscient/omnipotent and therefor able to predict an outcome or "determine" before creation what would happen at ALL TIMES is by definition NOT omniscient/omnipotent and therefor ranks along with the God's of the Greek pantheon, IMO. He therefor sets himself up to be fallible just by intervening in the universe of his creation.
Doesn't intervention preclude free-will? So not only is God a fallible meddler but also a puppet-master predeterministic entity.
On a side note, how are the "quote boxes" made?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Flamingo Chavez, posted 05-01-2003 10:45 PM Flamingo Chavez has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Adminnemooseus, posted 05-01-2003 11:53 PM DBlevins has replied
 Message 51 by Flamingo Chavez, posted 05-02-2003 1:09 AM DBlevins has replied

  
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3805 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 55 of 110 (38737)
05-02-2003 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Adminnemooseus
05-01-2003 11:53 PM


Re: How to use UBB code
Ahh thanks admin. I guess I should have realised what those thingies were on the side of the post box were.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Adminnemooseus, posted 05-01-2003 11:53 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

  
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3805 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 56 of 110 (38741)
05-02-2003 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Flamingo Chavez
05-02-2003 1:09 AM


FC-
quote:
I would disagree with you here, you are actually limiting God's power by saying he knows only one future. God's power is actually increased in the light of this limitation.
DB - Actually God's power is limited by the definition of being a supreme God. If a God is omniscient then he would know ALL futures not one. If you hold God as being anything other than omniscient/omnipotent then he is by definition fallible and a fallible God by definition is able to make mistakes. This ability to make mistakes by itself would be a decrease in his power because an all-powerful God would be omniscient.
Expanding on his fallibility. I think I'm beating a dead horse here but...If a God has to intervene or perform miracles after the fact of his creation then he would NOT be omniscient because if he was omniscient then he should have known at the beginning of creation how things would have worked out and set them in motion at the primal moment.
FC -
quote:
I just trust in the fact that God knows whats best for me and what is closest to his will.
DB - If what you are doing is his will, then how can it be yours? Does his will become yours, or does your will become his? Will must be exclusive if it is to be considered "free-will".
DB - Thanks, for the advice. Admin also pointed me in the right direction, hehe
[This message has been edited by DBlevins, 05-02-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Flamingo Chavez, posted 05-02-2003 1:09 AM Flamingo Chavez has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Mister Pamboli, posted 05-02-2003 11:30 AM DBlevins has not replied
 Message 63 by Flamingo Chavez, posted 05-02-2003 7:05 PM DBlevins has not replied

  
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