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Author Topic:   Can we be 100% sure there is/isn't a God?
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4090 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 102 of 110 (39052)
05-06-2003 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by crashfrog
04-30-2003 2:55 PM


Crash,
I've seen your argument about the immoral or powerless God a few times, and it has made me ask myself how I would answer it, since I believe in God. I don't fully have an answer yet, but I do need to address one flaw I think I see in your logic.
quote:
Since God doesn't intervene in situations of extreme moral injustice (genocide, etc.), he's either uninterested, immoral, or powerless.
In context, this is hard to argue with.
quote:
And personally I don't see the point in believing in a powerless or immoral god, so I don't.
Now we are no longer in a particular context, and I think powerless is too strong a word. A god that cannot fix every situation he wishes to fix is not necessarily powerless, he is only limited in power, and thus not omnipotent. For example (please don't correct me if my politics are wrong; you'll follow the example either way), America is powerful enough to force its will upon Iran, but it is not powerful enough to force its will upon China. Does this mean America is a powerless nation? Of course not. America is a powerful nation, perhaps the most powerful on earth.
In context, America is "powerless" to enforce its will upon China. I cannot therefore say that I don't care to live in a powerless nation like America, because America is not a powerless nation.
I don't know what to do with your overall argument against an omnipotent, omniscient and moral Creator. Logically, I just can't answer it. However, my consistent experience of God is way too powerful to ignore--in my opinion, in verifiable, real, and describable ways--so I am powerless to not believe in God, just as I seem to be powerless to answer your arguments against an omnipotent, omniscient, and moral Creator.
I can, however, point out that you have made a case only for a non-omnipotent god, not a powerless one.
I hope that's on topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 04-30-2003 2:55 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by crashfrog, posted 05-06-2003 2:25 AM truthlover has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4090 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 109 of 110 (39139)
05-06-2003 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by crashfrog
05-06-2003 2:25 AM


quote:
Anyway, I guess my point is that I think a god of limited power would choose to show himself considerably more so as to compensate for his decreased ability to cause direct change.
I may take you up on this sentence at a later time when I've had some time to mull over this.
I'm in an interesting quandary, although I don't necessarily have to do anything about it. I can't really deny your general reasoning (I could nitpick at some of your points, but that would annoy me as much as it would you), yet here I am a theist, and a rather extreme one at that. (I live in a community of about 200 people, who share pretty much everything we have, except our wives.)
I think I've seen some pretty amazing and unexplainable things, but if so, your question about why God doesn't intervene in other areas seems quite legitimate to me. I remember watching a movie called "Snow in August," where a Jewish child created a mud-giant (I can't remember what it was called), to help himself and his mom against some thugs. The Rabbi in the movie had said that the Jews had tried to create this mud-giant in Poland during the Hitler era, but they couldn't. I remember asking your very question. Why help the boy, but not help the Jews of Warsaw against Hitler?
I certainly have no answer at this present time. That'll be a hard question to shake off.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by crashfrog, posted 05-06-2003 2:25 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by John, posted 05-06-2003 11:12 PM truthlover has not replied

  
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