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Author Topic:   Is Abiogenesis a fact?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 239 of 303 (368247)
12-07-2006 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by NOT JULIUS
12-07-2006 3:24 PM


Re: Life from Non-Life is Not Reasonable
Supernintendo wrote:
So can we consider abiogensis a factual occurence based on available evidence?
I beg to disagree. I do not think that abiogenesis--concept of life originating from non-life--is rational. Common observation says that babies come from mothers, chicken from eggs, etc. Life from life.
Assuming you agree that in the past there was a point in time where there was no life on earth and that there is life on earth now, there are two possibilities for the emergence of life on earth.
1) Abiogenesis
2) Extraterrestrial Interference
Extraterrestrial includes God, intellegent aliens, a comet infected with life, etc.
Excluding something extraterrestrial, is there any other way life could have arrose besides abiogenesis?
For me to believe that life would come from non-life, scientists have to create a living thing (say a fly or worm), out of a non-living thing like a stone.
Well that is a little extreme IMO. The very first life forms were presumably very simple. Probably something we could hardly call 'life', just some simple replicators or something. We know that cells are made of atoms and that very simple life is basically just chemical interactions. If the chemicals needed for the first replicators were present in the early days of the earth, why don't you think they could have formed something that could be considered life, by definition?
Forming a worm from a stone isn't even in the same ballpark.
I think this issue was already settled by previous scientists like Pasteur.
His experiments didn't disprove abiogenesis, contrary to misunderstood oppinions on them. They were a lot different than the 'life' that abiogensis talks about and the conditions of the early planet that led to abiogensis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-07-2006 3:24 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-07-2006 5:32 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 258 of 303 (368493)
12-08-2006 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by NOT JULIUS
12-07-2006 5:32 PM


Re: Life from Non-Life is Not Reasonable
This statement is not logical: 'If the chemicals needed for the first replicators were present in the early days of the earth, why don't you think they could have formed something that could be considered life, by definition?
Well it wasn't a statement it was a question. A 'why do you think' question. If you want to apply logic then I'll apply logic. Your answer to the question is a logical fallacy.
Has scientists ever re-created that 'presumably very simple life form'? None that I know of. Have they even been able to create true protein out of non living thing? No. They may be able to create the building blocks--the components--of protein (amino acid, etc) but not protein itself. If all the brains of these scientist and their controlled laboratories could not build (yet)one of the more complex component of life, how is it that they presumptously presume that life come from non life?
Your saying that because scientists have not been able to do it then it is impossible. You are arguing from personal incredulity.
But I understand what you are getting at and why you think it. It is a fine opinion.
I think that if you educated yourself in this area, about the early conditions of the planet and the requirements for the simplist life forms (replication and heredidty) then your incredulity will decline. It isn't all that improbable as you seem to think. Heck, it might even be inevitable.
This statement is not logical: 'If the chemicals needed for the first replicators were present in the early days of the earth, why don't you think they could have formed something that could be considered life, by definition?
The error in this statement lies in the confusion of what is SOME and what is ALL.
Huh? What do you mean?
Funny, but I think scientists who think that because chimps share 98% of DNA of men, men must have evolve from chimps are making fundamental errors in logic.
That and they are just plain wrong.
Just because a dog share SOME of the elements of a rock ( for example:carbon, iron, etc) doesn't mean a dog comes from a rock. The logical statement is: "because carbon, and iron are found in dogs and rocks, therefore dogs and rocks share SOME common elements".
Ok, but if a dog has an atom of calcium in his bone that used to be in a rock, then that living matter in the dog came from the rock and life has come from non-life....just not in the sense of the origin of life. Its not like the dogs cells break down the calcium past the atomic level and then re-engineer it back into calcium into its bone. The calcium stays as calcium and it came from the rock before it was in the dog.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

Science fails to recognize the single most potent element of human existence.
Letting the reigns go to the unfolding is faith, faith, faith, faith.
Science has failed our world.
Science has failed our Mother Earth.
-System of a Down, "Science"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-07-2006 5:32 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-08-2006 3:11 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 260 of 303 (368499)
12-08-2006 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by NOT JULIUS
12-08-2006 2:30 PM


Re: Life from Non-Life is Not Reasonable
But, what gets my goat is to suggest--as some of the posters I believe are trying to suggest--that the ORIGIN of life is a pre-biotic soup w/o a living & intelligent being in the picture.
and your argument is from personal incredulity, a logical fallacy. IMHO, that's fine...you don't have to have a logical argument for your personal beliefs.
Modulous actually stumped me on this when he pointed out to an Abrahmic God. I'll add that Chap 1 of Genesis says: 'in the beginning, the earth was void ( no life at all). Then God said, 'let the earth produce all kinds of creatures'.
In the sense that there was no life on earth until God commanded so, if in that sense "abiogenesis" is meant. Then, I won't disagree.
Yes, the bible definately has life comming from non-life.
But, then again if a living God is the origin of life is it not "biogenesis", or "theogenesis" ,whatever?
How about...creation.
I repeat for clarity, if your position is to disregard the Ultimate Living Cause as the origin of life, and if your position is similar to those who think that all living things come from a pre-biotic soup w/o His hand, then I disagree.
And, my disagreement is based on this simple equation: INPUT + PROCESS = OUTPUT.
The theory of abiogenesis conforms to your equation. It is your incredulity that has lead you to your belief. Again, I ask why don't you think that abiogenesis is possible other than scientist have not been able to duplicate it (yet)?
There is I think another line of thought--that He caused that pre-biotic soup to exist. This one I have no sufficient basis to agree or disagree. I would wait till more concrete proofs come in--and that might be eternity.
You should leave you opinion on abiogenesis to 'I don't know' rather than it is unresonable and not let your incredulity determine your position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-08-2006 2:30 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-08-2006 3:48 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 262 of 303 (368508)
12-08-2006 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by NOT JULIUS
12-08-2006 3:48 PM


Re: Life from Non-Life is Not Reasonable
(1) The equation won't work
Well, there it is.
I think the equations do work.
Have you read any evidence that they don't work or are you basing this on your lack of evidence that they do?
Have you read much about the theory of abiogenesis?
If your basing it on a lack of evidence then you should educate yourself on the subject and reform your opinion.
The first life forms were extremely simple, not much different than non-living chemical reactions, so I don't see it as that big of a leap when they become 'alive'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-08-2006 3:48 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-08-2006 4:46 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 264 of 303 (368522)
12-08-2006 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by NOT JULIUS
12-08-2006 4:46 PM


Re: Life from Non-Life is Not Reasonable
The equation INPUT + PROCESS = OUTPUT will work Without God's hand?
Yes.
You mean that the scientists will come up w/ the ingredients of life, then they can process these ingredients in their sophisticated lab, and presto there will be a living thing?
Yes, and they won't even have to say "presto".
Well, as the saying goes. The proof of the pudding is in the eating!
Let them do it.
Give them time.

Now, how about you answer my questions good sir.

Science fails to recognize the single most potent element of human existence.
Letting the reigns go to the unfolding is faith, faith, faith, faith.
Science has failed our world.
Science has failed our Mother Earth.
-System of a Down, "Science"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-08-2006 4:46 PM NOT JULIUS has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 277 of 303 (369071)
12-11-2006 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by NOT JULIUS
12-08-2006 6:07 PM


Re: Life from Non-Life is Not Reasonable
My scanty evidence is that up till now scientists have been grapling to produce protein--real protein--the basic building block of "life". They have not yet done so.
Like I said, you should just read up on the subject. I think you will find that life from non-life is not all that unreasonable.
And, even if they produce that "most basic form of life" that would still NOT preclude the hands of a DIVINE MAKER.
I totally agree. But I'll point out that nothing can preclude the hands of a DIVINE MAKER. Even if we know every instant of the past and how everything came to be, it still doesn't mean that god isn't behind it all.
Just to build that "basic life form" took all the most brilliant minds to produce it. How much more for the "more complicated life form".?
But it also happened without any intellegence at all (although I realise you don't believe this).
Remember again the definition of a "Maker". One who has the resources and the necessary skills and knowledge to PROCESS INPUTS into desired OUTPUTS.
I think ID is a crock of shit, no offense. At least from a scientific point of view.
A lot of processes that seem to require intellegence turn out to require no intellegence at all. Its more amazing to me that they don't. I don't find it necessary to include a designer and I don't see science as challenging my faith whatsoever.
What Scientists are actually saying is this: 'we have discovered a horn, a horse, and a wing therefore there is a unicorn'.
I think you are misunderstanding what they are saying. You've probably read some dishonest anti-science literature (perhaps AiG or something).
Take it from me, someone who is on your side and the other side, that science is no threat to faith. There's no apologetics needed when science discovers that life can come from non-life, or that man evolved from simpler primates. It doesn't take anything away from GOD. (although sometimes it does point out the fallacies in the Bible.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-08-2006 6:07 PM NOT JULIUS has not replied

  
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