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Author Topic:   The Universal Moral Law & Devolution since the Fall
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 96 of 189 (348585)
09-13-2006 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Righteous Skeptic
09-13-2006 12:08 AM


Re: Paul spins another one.
You gotta come up to speed. All of the things you mention have been covered in this thread.
see:
Message 14;
Message 17;
Message 19;
Message 20;
Message 23;
Message 28 and quite a few others where it is addressed.
But yes, there is NO Fall in the Genesis story of the Garden of Eden.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Righteous Skeptic, posted 09-13-2006 12:08 AM Righteous Skeptic has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 102 of 189 (348607)
09-13-2006 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by NosyNed
09-13-2006 12:25 AM


Re: a more reasonable answer ....
If you look in Message 28 and Message 29 and Message 39 you will find some of the direct quotes from the Genesis story.
If we look at Genesis 2
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
we see that God mentions death to Adam. If death does not already exist then that is a threat with no meaning. But God also had created a Tree of Life which comes up later.
Death existed in the world before Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.
In addition God's own assesment of what happened was not that Adam and Eve had Fallen, but that after they ate from the Tree of Knowledge they had become more like him.
Genesis 3:
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
The stories in Genesis were never meant to be taken literally, they are explanations of the world folk lived in. They explain why humans farm instead of foraging, why child birth for humans seems more difficult and painful than for other animals, why snakes have no legs and why we fear snakes. They explain why we seem to have a moral code unlike the animals and why we do not live forever.
There is simply no Fall to be found in reading Genesis.
You can read Genesis 2 here and Genesis 3 here.
Edited by jar, : o

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by NosyNed, posted 09-13-2006 12:25 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 127 of 189 (349294)
09-15-2006 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
09-15-2006 11:33 AM


Re: inclination = deed?
Really there is little difference. The original sin was also an event. The Fall is another way of describing it. Fallenness is also a condition, the condition of the sin nature, built-in original sin.
However reading the Biblical story that supposedly documents the event there is no sign of either a Fall or Original Sin.
Paul is canonical same as Genesis, so that should be no surprise, and the church fathers interpreted Paul, not always rightly but mostly in the ballpark. That is, for instance, original sin has nothing to do with sex as Augustine apparently construed it at one point.
Paul is included in SOME Canon but not All Canon. In addition, Paul is stating an opinion which is NOT supported by the Genesis story. It could be supported if he was refering to either the Book of Enoch or First Adam & Eve which were also very popular at the time, or to one of the other scriptures floating around during the period, perhaps even some unknown work. Unfortunately neither book made it into the Canon that you claim to be authoritative and we do not know what he was referencing other than the Genesis Garden of Eden story and as shown, that does not support his assertion.
But when God says "I am a jealous God, visiting the sins of the fathers unto the third and fourth generations of those who hate me" that's another clue to the inherited nature of sin.
That shows only that there is NOT such a thing as Original Sin where today's generation is held accountable for the sins of Adam.
The problem Faith is that a literal reading of the Bible does NOT support either the concept of a Fall or Original Sin. To make that claim you must throw out Genesis.
Are you ready to throw out what is said in Genesis?
If not, will you show us where the support for Paul's assertion comes from?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 09-15-2006 11:33 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Equinox, posted 09-15-2006 12:43 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 131 of 189 (349309)
09-15-2006 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Equinox
09-15-2006 12:33 PM


If I remember correctly there was also blood from at least two other individuals found on the Iceman. IIRC the blood was also DNA tested to see if it came from him or some other people and was definitely shown to be not his. That gives us a sample of three minimum from one incident. In addition, IIRC he was from the 'K' population group and specifically the 'K1' haplogroup. If there was some Pre-Flood super genome why would Oetzi who was certainly Pre-Flood not show the super genome.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Equinox, posted 09-15-2006 12:33 PM Equinox has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 132 of 189 (349314)
09-15-2006 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Equinox
09-15-2006 12:43 PM


Re: inclination = deed?
Yes. Paul is included in most Canon. But as I pointed out, not all Canon. In fact, at least one Canon excludes ALL of the New Testament. And as you point out, not all of Paul's writings are known, or included.
The point is that we simply do not know what Paul is using as support for his assertion. It is NOT supported by Genesis unless he is refering to the Cain & Able story. It is likely that he was refering to either First Adam & Eve or Enoch, but neither of those made it into the Canon that Faith calls authoritative.
This is not that surprising as most of the beliefs about Satan and Satans Fall are also extra-biblical in nature.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Equinox, posted 09-15-2006 12:43 PM Equinox has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 142 of 189 (349966)
09-18-2006 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Archer Opteryx
09-18-2006 12:12 PM


Re: two trees
There is one other symbolic parallel. While we are innocent, as babies are, we are also immortal. Children are unaware of mortality, even after they reach the age where they KNOW right and wrong. It is only after learning something about life, after learning that we should try to do what is right yet will often fail, only after failing itself, that we realize that death actually is both a possibility and a reality.
I think this too is part of the reason that both tales were included. In the younger tale, the creation myth in Genesis 1, there is no mention of death. It is, as I said, a picture of a transcendent GOD, one separate from that which is created. It is a view of the whole, of creation, of the universe, of life. But it is impersonal.
The earlier tales, those that pick up in Genesis 2 and continue, are far more personal. They look at life relationships, things that are missing from the Genesis 1 story. In Genesis 2 & 3 we see the beginnings of awareness, and of limitations that were not found in the other creation myth. While the story in Genesis 1 is perhaps more sophisticated, it is also apart from life as life is lived.
The story is not just of rejection and punishment though. After the passages described as a curse, there is an interesting verse.
21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.
This from the God who had just said:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."
In that line we see concern, forgiveness, again a personal relationship.
"21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them."
GOD makes garments and GOD clothes them.
GOD does that not for His needs, but to satisfy their needs.
Why then the concern about immortality and how is that related to the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
I believe that it is directly related to knowing right and wrong. Mankind now knew right from wrong, was charged to try to do right, but still also has freewill. Mankind can now choose to do what is wrong. It is this capability, the capability to do wrong that must be limited. How within the constraints of the story can it be limited.
The story tellers had several possibilities, GOD could, one assumes, simply take away free will and make man always do right. GOD could make man simply an automaton. Another possibility for the story teller was to limit the scope, to say that we all will someday die, and the worst we can do is limited.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-18-2006 12:12 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-18-2006 1:24 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 144 of 189 (349976)
09-18-2006 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Archer Opteryx
09-18-2006 1:24 PM


Re: two trees
The storyteller also had the option of portraying God as killing them the same day. It would more literally fulfill his threat about what he would do 'the day you eat of it.' (Note: here's a 'day' in Genesis that God himself doesn't interpret as a 24-hour time period.) But he doesn't do that, either.
I think that too is intentional. I believe in this case the story teller is most definitely dealing with relationships and in the issue of what mans ultimate connection with GOD will be. We will die, we will be judged and our ultimate fate will be determined by our behavior. It will be tempered but it will be just.
GOD did NOT simply abandon Man. GOD did not remove freewill. GOD did not stop caring and providing for Mans needs.
GOD did not just terminate the experiment.
GOD did provide clothing for Adam and Eve to meet their needs.
GOD did not curse them beyond what they could bear.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-18-2006 1:24 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 172 of 189 (351307)
09-22-2006 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Archer Opteryx
09-22-2006 4:49 AM


Re: 'Hark! Are those canons I hear?'
A prayerfull request.
In your messages you often touch on things that may be either unfamilar to many readers, or that may be familar but not fully understood. As an example, here you mention "a liturgical cycle of oral readings".
I wonder if you could perhaps expand on that, what it is, how it operates, what purpose it serves, either here, if Admin let us get away with it, or in a separate thread that could go into, say, Faith and Belief?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-22-2006 4:49 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-23-2006 1:04 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 178 of 189 (351600)
09-23-2006 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Archer Opteryx
09-23-2006 1:04 PM


Re: 'Hark! Are those canons I hear?'
Christians who attended daily prayer services could expect to hear their entire Bible read in a two-year cycle. If you open a Book of Common Prayer or Lutheran Book of Worship today you can find a cycle of readings printed in the front or the back.
One question. Two or Three year cycle?
The Christian canon was larger than the Jewish one, though. A typical service included at least three readings: one from the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), one from the Epistles (letters of Paul, etc.), and one--always at the end--from the Gospels (the life of Christ as described in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John). In the medieval times you could also expect to hear a reading from the Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical books; these still form an important part of Eastern liturgies.
I assume that you include books like Acts in with the Epistles.
So what you describe is an organized reading of the Bible over a specified period. Are the parts read at any given time related?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-23-2006 1:04 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-23-2006 2:28 PM jar has not replied

  
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