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Author Topic:   The Universal Moral Law & Devolution since the Fall
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1 of 189 (347793)
09-09-2006 3:18 PM


NosyNed suggested that RickB make a new thread of this topic, so, knowing how much you all love to laugh at me, I thought I'd do it as a contribution to the general entertainment.
I'll just start by answering RickB's post from the old thread:
faith writes:
And obeying the law is not Christianity. Christianity is knowing you are in trouble because you haven't obeyed the law and need a savior.
RickB, calling me a liar, writes:
Sorry, but this statement is dripping with mendacity. Your attempt to paint Christianity as a (rather covenient) umbrella for all the world's faiths certainly doesn't square with your stated views on Islam. Nor does it provide for polytheistic, dharmic or Mesoamerican belief systems to name but a few.
My point was that recognition of the universal moral law is universal. It's in the Hindu idea of karma. It's in the Tao. It's the most rudimentary universal religious idea to recognize that it's better to be in line with the moral law than against it, since "what goes around comes around" at a bare minimum. The Book of Proverbs, which is a compendium of proverbs from many cultures, and the Tao (as I recall, it's been a long time since I read it) both teach the way to live that is in harmony with the universe, as it were, and that health and longevity follow. Again, this is rudimentary. Religions incorporate it but it is not definitive of them. Christianity is not about obeying the law, it's about needing a savior from it. As I go on to say as a matter of fact:
faith interpreted by Rick B writes:
Christianity is knowing you are in trouble because you haven't obeyed [biblical] law and need [to be saved by Jesus Christ].
Using general terms doesn't dodge this bullet, Faith.
Can't remember the last time I dodged any bullets around here. As usual I have no idea what the furor is about. Seems people are always getting offended no matter what a Christian says.
I've been clear that I'm not talking about Biblical law alone. Biblical law is simply the codification of the universal moral law. All cultures have had their own recognition of this law.
As for the Savior, yes, there is only one, and he's what Christianity is about, it's not about living according to the moral law for salvation.
RickB writes:
Anyway...
faith writes:
More like the inevitable degenerative trend can be put off longer by obedience by individuals.
Do you have any evidence that demonstrates the manner in which spiritual obediance is able to repress gene mutation? Do you have a hypothetical chemical process of some kind?
Nope. Love to think about it though. It's more the other way around though, thinking about how degenerative processes are brought about by the Fall and sin.
Is a given individual more likely to pass on a degenerative "fall-mutation" to a child she conceives prior to learning "obediance"?
Have no idea how it works.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by ikabod, posted 09-10-2006 9:08 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 4 by RickJB, posted 09-10-2006 10:17 AM Faith has replied
 Message 6 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-11-2006 6:04 AM Faith has replied
 Message 9 by Equinox, posted 09-11-2006 12:56 PM Faith has replied

  
AdminWounded
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 189 (347821)
09-09-2006 5:32 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 4493 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 3 of 189 (347913)
09-10-2006 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
09-09-2006 3:18 PM


My point was that recognition of the universal moral law is universal
i would offer a slightly differing view , the universal laws vs killing ,thieft, trespass , assault et al are the product of the first social contracts between the members of the first tribal groups , they are the default laws allowing the group to work in trust with each other , ...it is the later over laying organized religion that brings the moral tag .. the althority of a god to punish the wrong doers beyond death , and gives the moral tag its power .
these laws clearly predate the birth of christ and even the first covenentes with the tribes of Israel .. so these are not about following a god ,but about living with your fellow human beings , religion brings the laws into domain as examples of correct behavior but not of religious obsevence or ritual .
as for this so called "degenerative trend" i have yet to see an concert example ... to much is missperception ...
for example on e recent BBC news report is told how a community was worried by raising crime , when in fact crime figures showed a 30 % fall , however the local media had incressed its reporting of what crime there was by 50% ... thus we see more of what was once hidden and assume a raise .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 09-09-2006 3:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 4 of 189 (347923)
09-10-2006 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
09-09-2006 3:18 PM


faith writes:
My point was that recognition of the universal moral law is universal.
Ah, but you weren't talking about a "universal moral law", you were talking specifically about the fall!
Is the concept of original sin and the fall universal?
I think you will find that it is not, yet it remains central to your "degeneration" hypothesis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 09-09-2006 3:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 09-11-2006 5:36 AM RickJB has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 5 of 189 (348043)
09-11-2006 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by RickJB
09-10-2006 10:17 AM


My point was that recognition of the universal moral law is universal.
Ah, but you weren't talking about a "universal moral law", you were talking specifically about the fall!
I was talking about both and somehow you are confusing them.
The Fall is the Biblical explanation for the degeneration I was talking about, yes, and the conept of the Fall is unique to Biblical Christianity, as even Judaism does not recognize it.
But I WAS also talking about the universality of the moral law, which the Bible uniquely tells us we violated. There is no contradiction or confusion if you just keep the topics separated in your mind. Universally recognized moral law, specific unique Biblical revelations about that law and its workings in the human race. No problem.
Is the concept of original sin and the fall universal?
No, and again, I didn't say it is. It's unique to Biblical Christianity.
But again, the moral law is universal, though it varies somewhat from place to place and time to time. Of course I would claim that the Bible presents it correctly, but at the same time it is clear that humanity in general has always had a sense of a moral law and a conscience. The teachings of someone like Lao Tse -- I guess I should reread him -- are clearly focused on a law he believes is operative in the world in an objective sense.
I think you will find that it is not, yet it remains central to your "degeneration" hypothesis.
But there is no need for this confusion. I believe the Bible has the perfect truth about all these things, and I have not said that all its revelations are universally recognized, far from it -- many of them are unique, and the fall is the explanation for the degeneration hypothesis as you put it.
But an apprehension of a moral law that governs this universe, though it takes various forms, IS universal.
Unfortunately I forgot about this thread and the original posts on the other one so I'm no longer sure of the context here, but if the thread continues maybe I'll catch up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by RickJB, posted 09-10-2006 10:17 AM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by RickJB, posted 09-11-2006 6:53 AM Faith has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 6 of 189 (348048)
09-11-2006 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
09-09-2006 3:18 PM


Faith:
The Book of Proverbs, which is a compendium of proverbs from many cultures, and the Tao (as I recall, it's been a long time since I read it) both teach the way to live that is in harmony with the universe, as it were, and that health and longevity follow.
This is a fair simplification of the Taoist view. The attempt to make this philosophy an example of 'moral law', though, is to squeeze too large a round peg into too small a square hole. The words 'moral' and 'law' imply specific Western religious concepts shaped by Judeo-Christian traditions.
Christianity is not about obeying the law, it's about needing a savior from it.
This rhetorical flourish does not accurately reflect Christian practice. In their daily lives Christians feel an obligation to obey moral laws just like anyone else. Having a savior doesn't free them from an obligation to be moral; it just offers them overdraft protection for the times they come up short.
knowing how much you all love to laugh at me, I thought I'd do it as a contribution to the general entertainment.
Now, now... there's no cause for paranoia.

Edited by Archer Opterix, : Clarity.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 09-09-2006 3:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 189 (348052)
09-11-2006 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Archer Opteryx
09-11-2006 6:04 AM


Jesus! I've Fallen and I Can't Get Up!
Archer writes:
I understand the theology behind this rhetorical flourish, but it's not really an accurate statement of Christian practice. And that's good. In practice Christians know they have an obligation to obey moral laws just like anyone else. Having a savior doesn't free them from this obligation to behave; it just offers overdraft protection for the times they come up short.
Overdraft protection? Thats a new way of putting it!
My argument is that humanity may not be the victims of a Fall, but then I see certain facts (or facts as I interpret them) and often wonder what the long range outlook really is.
  • It seems that the human condition has always had wars and killing. We never seem to evolve out of it. At its source---the murder scene of any number of murders in any city---one can observe as barbaric of actions as ever was committed by any individual. Same goes with the battlefield. Hi Tech weaponery hides the fact that bodies are being blown to bits at an even more lethal rate than anything the machine gun could do in WW I.
    About the only encouraging statistic is that less American soldiers die these days than died in WWI and WW II.
    Im waundering....
    But to summarize, I see no evidence that human behavior is getting any better.
    We not have fallen, but we certainly arn't getting up!
    Edited by Phat, : punctuation

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 6 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-11-2006 6:04 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

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    RickJB
    Member (Idle past 4990 days)
    Posts: 917
    From: London, UK
    Joined: 04-14-2006


    Message 8 of 189 (348056)
    09-11-2006 6:53 AM
    Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
    09-11-2006 5:36 AM


    Faith writes:
    I believe the Bible has the perfect truth about all these things.
    Doesn't go into much detail about genetic mutation though, does it?
    Faith writes:
    ..and the fall is the explanation for the degeneration hypothesis
    Okay, so this being the case can you tell me what "universal moral law" a Cheetah would follow to avoid "sin" and therefore "degeneration"?
    Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by Faith, posted 09-11-2006 5:36 AM Faith has replied

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    Equinox
    Member (Idle past 5141 days)
    Posts: 329
    From: Michigan
    Joined: 08-18-2006


    Message 9 of 189 (348119)
    09-11-2006 12:56 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
    09-09-2006 3:18 PM


    Hi Faith-
    Well, looks like we’ll have to wait for another thread to cover all the points from that last one. So, focusing on this thread, we should first agree on what it is about. The opening post is too long and scattered to be a topic we should all stay on, so I propose the following:
    Discussion point: Is there divinely ordained genetic degredation over the past 6,000 years, and is this divine retribution from the Christian God for failing to follow a universal law?
    There appear to me to be a number of reasons why this view disagrees with Christianity.
    For one thing, according to Christianity and the Bible, following the law isn’t what’s important. At first it sounded like Faith was saying it was.
    quote:
    Faith wrote:
    I would expect that there would still be people of extraordinary good health living here and there. If you want the spiritual explanation, it's all a matter of sin. Read the Book of Proverbs. Good health and long life are a matter of living according to God's Law.
    And later .
    I've been clear that I'm not talking about Biblical law alone. Biblical law is simply the codification of the universal moral law. All cultures have had their own recognition of this law.
    These appear to support the idea that the genetic degredation is due to failing to follow a universal law of niceness, like not murdering, stealing, lying, etc. Basically just commandments 5 through 10 of the 10 commandments.
    But of course that’s not what the Bible or Christianity say is important. I’ve read the whole Bible, and others probably have too. I think Faith will agree with me that commandments 5 through 10 aren’t the main point (that’s why they are 5-10, and not #1). Even Jesus says that, in Mt 22. The Bible, over and over, stresses that other religions are NOT acceptable, no matter how nice one is. The OT goes into incredible detail about that, and repeatedly gives examples where being the right religion is more important than family (such as the order to publically kill any family member, “even the wife you love”, if they so much as suggest going to a different church, or the time a mother is rebelled against because of her religion, or many other examples). Much of Jeremiah is a rant against other religions. The NT takes this even farther, saying that not only is religion the most important thing, but now trying to keep the law is a threat to your salvation (Gal). Paul goes on and on about how trying to keep the law is a ticket to eternal torture. Any reading of the Bible that doesn’t completely ignore it makes it clear that people like Gandhi (a Hindu) and Anne Frank (a Jew) are screaming in eternal agony right now.
    Later on, Faith clarifies here position, which does seem to fit more with the Bible:
    quote:
    As for the Savior, yes, there is only one, and he's what Christianity is about, it's not about living according to the moral law for salvation.
    Christianity is not about obeying the law, it's about needing a savior from it.
    It seems that most cultures do have something like a universal moral law (UML), which condemns murder, torture, stealing, lying, and such. That would be a good topic for a thread on Evolutionary Psychology. It also seems that the Bible mandates something very different, where acceptance of Jesus and only Jesus is what is important, and that someone who is very, very good at obeying the UML has no hope of avoiding torture unless they are Christian, and a Christian is saved from torture no matter how bad they are (Jeffrey Dahlmer accepted Christ before being executed).
    So, back to my original response to this idea - according to the Bible, and to every major denomination today, it’s being Christian that is most important to God. Yes, I know that plenty of verses can support the idea that following the UML is important as long as you are Christian FIRST. Thus, if Faith’s idea that God’s unhappiness with you results in genetic degradation, then expecting a high mutation rate among those of the wrong denomination or Hindu, Muslim or maybe worst of all, those accepting Unitarians, makes sense.
    In fact, along those lines, maybe Apo shows that Luther and Calvin had it wrong. After all, Apo and his family are clearly favored by God, and being in a remote village in Italy, I bet they are observant Catholics. So all that prayer to saints, veneration of the pope, and statues to Mary must be the one true faith, and the best way to ward off bad mutations.
    If we are basing our guess about God’s desires on the Bible and on Christianity, then UML seems to have only a slight effect, and certainly a lot less than being in the right religion.
    Take care all-
    -Equinox
    P. S. RickJB - the answer is that Cheetahs just plain lose because of something someone else did. It’s terribly unjust, but hey, isn’t that the case for the whole idea of the fall and substitutional sacrifice? I mean, everyone is supposed to have original sin and be going to Hell due to something their distant great-great-great-great-grandfather did?
    Unless of course we make an innocent person suffer to make up for the blame on you that isn’t from you but from some else who did it because God made them that way knowing in advance they would do it?
    I guess the cheetah suffering from some genetic degredation shouldn’t complain. The Bible (see Rom 9) makes it clear that no matter how unjust it is, God can do whatever he wants and we can’t complain, since he’s almighty. This kind of injustice to the cheetah is nothing compared to the other unjust things God is supposed to have done in the Bible, such as killing millions of innocent animals in the flood, or thousands of male children in the exodus, and on and on.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Faith, posted 09-09-2006 3:18 PM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 16 by Faith, posted 09-11-2006 3:58 PM Equinox has replied

      
    Wounded King
    Member
    Posts: 4149
    From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Joined: 04-09-2003


    Message 10 of 189 (348123)
    09-11-2006 1:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
    09-11-2006 6:22 AM


    Total thread derailment.
    About the only encouraging statistic is that less American soldiers die these days than died in WWI and WW II
    I can see how that would be encouraging to americans but is it neccessarily a good thing? When the burdens of war are so asymmetric that an occupying army can have less than 3000 dead while the occupied country has at least 10 times that in civilian deaths alone. Doesn't this give Americans an isolation from the realities of warfare which may not be a good thing?
    TTFN,
    WK

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    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 11 of 189 (348134)
    09-11-2006 2:54 PM
    Reply to: Message 6 by Archer Opteryx
    09-11-2006 6:04 AM


    The Book of Proverbs, which is a compendium of proverbs from many cultures, and the Tao (as I recall, it's been a long time since I read it) both teach the way to live that is in harmony with the universe, as it were, and that health and longevity follow.
    This is a fair simplification of the Taoist view. The attempt to make this philosophy an example of 'moral law', though, is to squeeze too large a round peg into too small a square hole. The words 'moral' and 'law' imply specific Western religious concepts shaped by Judeo-Christian traditions.
    I just took a look at an online copy and have to say it's really not much like the Book of Proverbs at all. It is about "virtue" though, but lack of desire seems to be the highest virtue, not at all a Western concept.
    Christianity is not about obeying the law, it's about needing a savior from it.
    This rhetorical flourish does not accurately reflect Christian practice. In their daily lives Christians feel an obligation to obey moral laws just like anyone else. Having a savior doesn't free them from an obligation to be moral; it just offers them overdraft protection for the times they come up short.
    I didn't mean to imply that by being saved from the law we no longer are obliged to obey it. Of course we are. It's just that we can't be saved by obeying it, salvation is a gift of God. We are in violation of the law by nature far beyond a mere overdraft, which implies that we might occasionally be in tune with it, but scripture teaches that even our righteousness is a violation of the law.
    But let's not get too far off in this direction since the thread is supposed to be about how life has degenerated since the Fall.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 6 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-11-2006 6:04 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

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     Message 13 by robinrohan, posted 09-11-2006 3:13 PM Faith has replied

      
    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 12 of 189 (348135)
    09-11-2006 3:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 8 by RickJB
    09-11-2006 6:53 AM


    I believe the Bible has the perfect truth about all these things.
    Doesn't go into much detail about genetic mutation though, does it?
    Some things are inferred. If we know that the Fall brought death into the world this should be food for thought. There are further hints in the Bible about how that played out in the first 1500 years too, the gradually decreasing lifespans of the righteous patriarchs in Genesis 5 for instance, and of course the Flood, from which God saved only righteous Noah. Put that together with the fossil record and other scientific facts, and reasonable educated inferences are quite possible.
    ..and the fall is the explanation for the degeneration hypothesis
    Okay, so this being the case can you tell me what "universal moral law" a Cheetah would follow to avoid "sin" and therefore "degeneration"?
    Well, the Bible says that all creation was "cursed for our sake" and that the creation "groans in anticipation" of the end of the curse, when Jesus returns. The poor cheetah was cursed for our sake with the same malady we suffer on account of our sins, though the cheetah can't sin. The inference to draw from this is not entirely clear though, perhaps that God had pity on us since if we were under the curse of death we couldn't survive at all in a world of immortal beasts.

    This message is a reply to:
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    robinrohan
    Inactive Member


    Message 13 of 189 (348136)
    09-11-2006 3:13 PM
    Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
    09-11-2006 2:54 PM


    But let's not get too far off in this direction since the thread is supposed to be about how life has degenerated since the Fall.
    Do you mean moral degeneration?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by Faith, posted 09-11-2006 2:54 PM Faith has replied

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     Message 18 by Faith, posted 09-11-2006 4:00 PM robinrohan has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 14 of 189 (348137)
    09-11-2006 3:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
    09-11-2006 3:05 PM


    But that is NOT what the Bible says.
    If we know that the Fall brought death into the world this should be food for thought.
    But we don't know that. In fact, Genesis says just the opposite. To make the eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil mean that death entered the world you must call God both a liar and a fool.
    God created a Tree of Life. If death were not already part of this world then that was pointless. Adam & Eve were already slated to die, else why did God fear they would eat from the Tree of Life?
    There are further hints in the Bible about how that played out in the first 1500 years too, the gradually decreasing lifespans of the righteous patriarchs in Genesis 5 for instance, and of course the Flood, from which God saved only righteous Noah.
    But all of those are simply reflections of the much older Babylonian tales, where the lifespans were several times longer than anything even claimed in the Bible stories. In addition, so far no one has ever been able to put forward any evidence for some worldwide flood that stood up to critical examination.
    Put that together with the fossil record and other scientific facts, and reasonable educated inferences are quite possible.
    That might be interesting if you could present some fossil evidence that supproted your claim of devolution. I look forward to seeing that.

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
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    mjfloresta
    Member (Idle past 5993 days)
    Posts: 277
    From: N.Y.
    Joined: 06-08-2006


    Message 15 of 189 (348139)
    09-11-2006 3:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 14 by jar
    09-11-2006 3:19 PM


    Re: But that is NOT what the Bible says.
    If we know that the Fall brought death into the world this should be food for thought.
    But we don't know that. In fact, Genesis says just the opposite. To make the eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil mean that death entered the world you must call God both a liar and a fool.
    God created a Tree of Life. If death were not already part of this world then that was pointless. Adam & Eve were already slated to die, else why did God fear they would eat from the Tree of Life?
    19 By the sweat of your brow
    you will eat your food
    until you return to the ground,
    since from it you were taken;
    for dust you are
    and to dust you will return."
    Sure seems to be a death sentence.
    Other passages confirm it:
    Romans 5:
    12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned” 13
    You can believe the Bible or not; but don't tell Faith she's saying something the bible's not..
    The Bible not making sense to you is not the same thing as the Bible not saying what it's saying.
    You claim that God says just the opposite. Where?
    God only barred Adam and Eve from the tree of life after they had sinned. Now that they were no longer perfect moral agents they could not be allowed to live forever. The fact that they had not eaten of the tree of life in all the time prior to their rebellion implies that they were not expecting to die.
    Imagine your scenario:
    There's death in the world already. Adam and Eve must be aware of it (yes?). There's a source of immortality in their own backyard. All they have to do is eat some fruit. And they don't do it? Are they too lazy? What craziness prevents them from eating the fruit once and for all?

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