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Member (Idle past 3942 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
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Author | Topic: What are the Degrees of Fundamentalism? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Asgara Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
Where is abortion, legalized gambling and no death penalty talked about in the bible...especially as sins that will bring the nation out of god's favor?
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ramoss Member (Idle past 643 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Abortion is in the bible in numbers 5, as a test for fidelity. The procedure is the high priest gives the woman some 'bitter water' when she is pregnent. If she aborts, she was unfaithful.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What an absolutely bizarre reading of Numbers 5:11 on. There is no hint that the woman is pregnant at all. The water will either poison her or she will have no symptoms from it.
Jamieson, Fausset & Brown commentary:Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible 12-15. if any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him--This law was given both as a strong discouragement to conjugal infidelity on the part of a wife, and a sufficient protection of her from the consequences of a hasty and groundless suspicion on the part of the husband. His suspicions, however, were sufficient in the absence of witnesses ( Lev 20:10 ) to warrant the trial described; and the course of proceeding to be followed was for the jealous husband to bring his wife unto the priest with an offering of barley meal, because none were allowed to approach the sanctuary empty handed ( Exd 23:15 ). On other occasions, there were mingled with the offering, oil which signified joy, and frankincense which denoted acceptance ( Psa 141:2 ). But on the occasion referred to, both these ingredients were to be excluded, partly because it was a solemn appeal to God in distressing circumstances, and partly because it was a sin offering on the part of the wife, who came before God in the character of a real or suspected offender.
17, 18. the priest shall take holy water--Water from the laver, which was to be mixed with dust--an emblem of vileness and misery ( Gen 3:14 Psa 22:15 ).in an earthen vessel--This fragile ware was chosen because, after being used, it was broken in pieces ( Lev 6:28 11:33 ). All the circumstances of this awful ceremony--her being placed with her face toward the ark--her uncovered head, a sign of her being deprived of the protection of her husband ( 1Cr 11:7 ) --the bitter potion being put into her hands preparatory to an appeal to God--the solemn adjuration of the priest ( Num 5:19-22 ), all were calculated in no common degree to excite and appall the imagination of a person conscious of guilt. 21. The Lord make thee a curse, &c.--a usual form of imprecation ( Isa 65:15 Jer 29:22 ). 22. the woman shall say, Amen, Amen--The Israelites were accustomed, instead of formally repeating the words of an oath merely to say, "Amen," a "so be it" to the imprecations it contained. The reduplication of the word was designed as an evidence of the woman's innocence, and a willingness that God would do to her according to her desert. 23, 24. write these curses in a book--The imprecations, along with her name, were inscribed in some kind of record--on parchment, or more probably on a wooden tablet.blot them out with the bitter water--If she were innocent, they could be easily erased, and were perfectly harmless; but if guilty, she would experience the fatal effects of the water she had drunk. 29. This is the law of jealousies--Adultery discovered and proved was punished with death. But strongly suspected cases would occur, and this law made provision for the conviction of the guilty person. It was, however, not a trial conducted according to the forms of judicial process, but an ordeal through which a suspected adulteress was made to go--the ceremony being of that terrifying nature, that, on the known principles of human nature, guilt or innocence could not fail to appear. From the earliest times, the jealousy of Eastern people has established ordeals for the detection and punishment of suspected unchastity in wives. The practice was deep-rooted as well as universal. And it has been thought, that the Israelites being strongly biassed in favor of such usages, this law of jealousies "was incorporated among the other institutions of the Mosaic economy, in order to free it from the idolatrous rites which the heathens had blended with it." Viewed in this light, its sanction by divine authority in a corrected and improved form exhibits a proof at once of the wisdom and condescension of God.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The death penalty is obvious. "Whoever shall shed man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed." This is a command, and the Law is full of commands to enact the death penalty besides that. Failure to enact it, at least in the case of murder, would certainly be to bring God's wrath on a nation. Even directly it punishes the nation, since it requires the nation to support people who shouldn't be allowed to live at all.
Abortion is murder and legalizing it, the state itself backing murder, clearly puts the nation as a whole in violation of God's Law. Legalized gambling just came to my mind as I was writing since we seem to have more and more of it. There is no direct command against it but I'd say it's a form of stealing from the people on such a scale as to be an offense to God, not to mention the greed of everybody involved and the lack of faith in God to provide that is evidenced by the feverish participation in such things. These are just a few things though. How about Manifest Destiny, which is another sin America committed, against Mexico, that is bringing judgment on us -- in the form of illegal immigration I believe. I think slavery was pretty much paid for in the Civil War, but it's possible the nation is still up for more judgment there too. If the nation legalizes gay marriage, there's another invitation to judgment.
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Discreet Label Member (Idle past 5094 days) Posts: 272 Joined: |
Always the response to these judgments should be repentance and drawing closer to God. How many do that? Just for sake of curiosity, what happens when we approach the point of being as close to GOD as possible, and those things like hurricane devastation, people running into buildings etc. still occur? Honestly what do you say if it were to still happen?
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Discreet Label Member (Idle past 5094 days) Posts: 272 Joined: |
There is only one state that legalizes gambling and that is Nevada. E-gambling does not count because that would be considered international gambling. And Indian casinos don't count because indians are on their own territory.
And i'm not terribly sure abortion could be considered killing something. Physically the time frames at which abortion is legal, the thing (i don't know the technical term), if removed from the body the cells cease to function, in other words its totally dependant upon the woman. How is it then any difference from removing a cancerous tumor? The thing is not even capable of self sustainable breath. Arguably given a few more weeks in the oven it does become a human. Possibly slightly inflammtory the abortion portion if it is am sorry. Also secondary question completely unrealted why don't you ever pop up in the chat room? Edited by Discreet Label, : Forgot a negative. Edited by Discreet Label, : Added the abortion bit.
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Faith writes:
As far as I know, it is a somewhat standard reading, though perhaps not the one preferred by evangelicals. Take a look at the footnotes in the NIV translation. It also appears to coincide with the reading in the marginal notes of the Skeptics Annotated Bible. What an absolutely bizarre reading of Numbers 5:11 on. The bitterness might have been caused by ergot, a fungal contaminent of barley, and with a history of use as an abortifacient. Compassionate conservatism - bringing you a kinder, gentler torture chamber
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MangyTiger Member (Idle past 6384 days) Posts: 989 From: Leicester, UK Joined: |
There is only one state that legalizes gambling and that is Nevada I don't know if it's changed since I left in '93 but that didn't used to be true. New Jersey allowed gambling (casinos in Atlantic City - and I know they're still there because they were shut down by a local government budget crisis last week) and there were also a number of states that had legal on-course betting on dogs and horses* *Not against each other you understand Oops! Wrong Planet
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docpotato Member (Idle past 5078 days) Posts: 334 From: Portland, OR Joined: |
If you know the Old Testament it's easy enough to know how the nation is out of God's will. Abortion certainly for one instance. I think not consistently applying the death penalty is another. Legalized gambling. Any time the nation legalizes what God calls a sin we are in trouble. We don't need to know specifics in each catastrophe. I think I understand. If it weren't for those abortionists, I wouldn't have just stubbed my toe. What a catastrophe that was. I'm just grateful God gave us all a sign that the nation is out of control.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yes Nevada, and yes Atlanta, and also Indian gambling is now allowed in California and I don't know where else, and many states have legal poker parlors -- which I was very surprised to find out in California years ago. Oh horses, I didn't even think of that.
And since we mentioned Nevada, there's also legalized prostitution. But then that should mean Nevada's going to get it hard at some point. Oh and I've been mulling over the state lotteries too. They aren't so bad since they benefit a good cause, but they do tempt people to spend more than they have. Gray area to my mind. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Discreet Label Member (Idle past 5094 days) Posts: 272 Joined: |
Lotteries are actually a useful bit, I'm not 100% sure but i think all the money generated by the state lotto, at least in california, strictly goes into paying for education.
in edit:(at least in this context its taking money from people that don't understand the odds of the lotto and then generating a situation that people could begin to understand the lotto vs this actually benefiting a solitary person) Edited by Discreet Label, : No reason given.
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Discreet Label Member (Idle past 5094 days) Posts: 272 Joined: |
True I had forgotten about the east coast...California is the center of the world lol (i kid), But i hadn't been anywhere else in the coutnry.
Also in at the context of California, Indian gambling is not strictly touchable by the California government. However indirectly California has a great deal of power oaver Indian gambling because, California does control the transit through the Indian reservations (which are not american soil).
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ramoss Member (Idle past 643 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
The 'swelling' that the woman experiances is pregnancy.
If you are having trouble understanding it.. ask your local orthodox, conservative or reform rabbi, and they will explain it to you. The problem is that you are not understanding the eupphemism of the time period. For example 'thigh' is almost certainly a euphemism for the vulva.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Actually I did suspect a euphemism and thought the idea was a general punishment on her sexual and reproductive parts -- but all the translations I'm aware of talk about INABILITY to conceive, no suggestion that she is at the time pregnant. Odd if so that it is not made explicit at the beginning of the passage. The Bible is usually quite direct about pregnancy. If she is exonerated she will be able to conceive.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes: ... all the translations I'm aware of talk about INABILITY to conceive, no suggestion that she is at the time pregnant. That interpretation doesn't make any sense. The woman in question clearly did commit adultery:
quote: and yet:
quote: Whether she is "defiled" or not, her husband is to bring her to the priest. "Defiled" clearly refers to pregnancy. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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