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Author Topic:   Will I see Hitler in heaven?
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 15 of 99 (321861)
06-15-2006 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
06-15-2006 7:47 AM


cavediver
I can think of no greater demonstration of the concept of grace than to see him there
Grace for Hitler. Amazing. Makes you wonder what all the fuss of world war 2 was about not to mention the silly posturings of the Jewish people from the death camps.
I mean, hell there is an afterlife where all those atrocities are meaningless.Just think of the wonderous conversations you can have with the likes of,say, Jeffrey Dahlmer.
"Say jeff? When you are scarfing down a piece of human flesh and you get thirsty, do you prefer red or white wine?
A heaven such as this is just as ludicrous in my view as a hell for Hitler. I mean what punishment do you inflict sufficient to balance the scales? Do you place him in a long windowless barn ,naked, and tell him he is going to have a shower? Do you place him on a battlefield to let the bullet leads rip his flesh? Or perhaps the russian front line with his own troops,starving and so cold he cannot pull a trigger?
Heaven and hell are the illusions we embrace to punish and reward those that we individually value and devalue .And the greatest tragedy of it all is that we will not end the illusion.
Wilfred Owen called it " the eternal reciprocity of tears".

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 Message 23 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-15-2006 4:20 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 38 of 99 (322338)
06-16-2006 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by macaroniandcheese
06-15-2006 4:20 PM


brennakimi
I am sorry, Brennakimi, for I fail to see the point that you are trying to make here. Could you please elaborate what you are in disagreement about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-15-2006 4:20 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-16-2006 3:33 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 41 of 99 (322536)
06-17-2006 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by macaroniandcheese
06-16-2006 3:33 PM


brennakimi
i disagree that hitler was himself so innumerably evil.
I never stated he was. That said, a person who rises to power as he did and then excercises that power the way he did, holds greater responsibility as a consequence of that power than people farther down the food chain.
The point of my tirade was that Hitler should not recieve forgiveness for his actions. Being atheist I can hardly expect such things to occur to a man long dead. I just cannot imagine the notion of release from responsibility that pervades the idea of heaven in christian worldviews.
he was no more or less evil than those who have carried out various atrocities at various levels throughout history.
Of course he was not and that is not pertainent to the response I gave cavediver to which you inserted your opinion. I did not include Genghis Khan nor Jim Jones , Lieutenant William Calley, or Moses either but the responsibility is theirs irregardless since actions were commenced upon their orders. If I were to have access to the make believe world of the afterlife these people would be redressed in ways far more in line with the magnitude of their actions.
But then I just happen to have the character fault to be that unforgiving.

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 Message 43 by iano, posted 06-17-2006 12:17 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 44 of 99 (322554)
06-17-2006 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by iano
06-17-2006 12:17 PM


Re: Lifes a beach - then you die
iano
The Christian position is that you, arguing about Hitlers relative-to-you evil is the same as one grain of sand on a beach arguing that it is closer to the sun that the grain of sand next to it.
Measured against human standards, Hitler was full of evil. Measured against Gods standards we're all full of evil.
That makes sense in the christian worldview since God is the source of evil though that also makes the standards of God to be somewhat suspect as a morally superior reference to our own. It is also the contention of christian worldview that this is a perfectly reasonable stance for God to take even though it is no different from that of the previous list of historical people.
To my view that God has the ultimate responsibility for atrocities and therefore forgiveness of our sins are a ludicrous proposition since we cannot otherwise act out against the nature God instilled.
It is a moot point for me to be making though it does serve to show my take on things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by iano, posted 06-17-2006 12:17 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by iano, posted 06-17-2006 1:31 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 49 of 99 (322771)
06-17-2006 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by iano
06-17-2006 1:31 PM


Re: Lifes a beach - then you die
iano
The Christian position doesn't say that God is the source of evil but the we are
My error.I should have said the biblical position as outlined in Isaiah
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
Sorry for the mix up.

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 Message 47 by iano, posted 06-17-2006 1:31 PM iano has not replied

  
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