Can those outside of science credibly speak about science?

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Yes, I engineer stuff in my work, and I use the scientific method in my hobbies, which include flying planes, designing and building electric motors, and astronomy.

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OK, please give a detailed example of the science you do.

What's the answer to this puzzle?And I'll trust you that you will not so a search for the answer on line. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-04-2006 06:50 AM

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all but 3

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Incorrect.Try again.

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But right or wrong, this wouldn't prove whether logic is natural or not, as I said that we are not always good at it, and some of us are better at it than others.

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You are right in that just your results of doing the puzzle do not indicate anything about the entire human population.However, the fact is, this card task trips up almost everybody, even those people trained in critical thinking skills.Studies have been conducted many times which show that people find this card rask extremely difficult and most people get it wrong, even though it is a very basic, simple abstract logic problem.

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I meant what robinrohan just said in his post, logic is simply the process of thinking. Formal logic is the refinement of this process.

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Well then, the conclusion you must come to is that you aren't a very good thinker, and that most people, even those trained in critical thinking, aren't very good thinkers.And anyway, it's absurd to describe logic as "thinking". I can think about what I want for breakfast, I can think about how much snow is on the ground, I can think about the mole on my wrist, and none of these are in any way "logical" thoughts.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-05-2006 07:10 AM

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If you are saying that grammar is fundamentally logical, I agree.

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Grammar is not logical by any normal definition of the word.It is an arbitrary set of rules.

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You don't have to have training in formal logic. All you have to do is become aware of what you've been accepting unconsciously--like my friend the "great artist."

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Have you done the Wason card task yet?This is the third time I've asked.

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Can a card with a secondary color show a even number?

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You aren't supposed to know that for this task.The information given is all that is needed to figure out the answer, which is, as I said, a very basic abstract logic problem.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-05-2006 03:28 PM

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The DICTIONARY defines logic as thinking, for heaven's sake, defines it as REASONING.

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"Thinking" is not synonymous with "reasoning". Nor is all "thinking" logical."Reasoning" is a type of "thinking", but "reasoning" is not the only kind of thinking there is.Remember, dictionaries describe how words are used by people, they do not proscribe meaning.

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What's with you guys with your insistence on your specialized definition?

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In general, using specific definitions for words makes for clearer, more productive discussions.Here's what RR said: What those of us who have bothered to do some reading up on the subject have learned is that the above claim is generally untrue.Most people can't recognize a contradiction/fallacy when they see it, and they have to put in effort to learn to avoid such pitfalls in thinking.If logic beyond the exceedingly basic correlational type was so natural, then people wouldn't make such trivial errors so incredibly often.See, that's the kind of thing one discovers when one looks into the subject like we have.

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I have no other answer to the puzzle. If I want to prove whether an even number is always backed by a primary color I'm going to have to check the even number, the primary color and the nonprimary color.

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Incorrect.Most people can't do this easily, or at all, even though it is a very basic, very uncomplicated abstract logic task, so you shouldn't feel bad about it.Humans aren't very good at abstract logic.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-05-2006 03:42 PM

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I think there's something basically fundamentally wrong with the scientific mentality. I've been coming to that conclusion for some time now. Something lacking in the reasoning department, and in the plain humanity department for sure.

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Yeah, you'd better stop going to the doctor, taking any medications, eating any food that is prepared in a restaurant (microbiology helps prevent foodborne illness), using any antibacterial product or antiseptic, going to the dentist, using the internal combustion engine in any form, using the computer, or using electricity.The "scientific mentality" produced all of those things, and it's fundamentally wrong, so you'd better just lay off.

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What is the point of this test?

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The Wason card task is a very basic abstract logic task.If logic is so "natural" to humans, as you claim, the task should be pretty easy for everyone.

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Sentence structure seems logical to me.

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Is this logical grammar to you?:

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And what I am getting here? Some tricky test that's supposed to show something.

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No, it is a trivially basic abstract logic task.Haven't you been reading the thread. I've explained it's relevance to you and others several times.The fact that you think it's "tricky" demonstrates my point beautifully; abstract logic is not natural to humans.

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Academic ivy-tower nonsense.

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OK, THAT'S IT.I am sick to death of spending time and effort putting forth reasoned arguments and looking up evidence in this matter simply to have you handwave it away based upon nothing but your ignorance-based personal incredulity.All you've offered as rebuttal to specific claims which are backed by established science are sulky, no-effort, one or two sentence replies that consist of nothing but your personal opinions which rarely, if ever, actually address any of the specific information provided to you.You have demonstrated clearly that you don't even know what formal logic is, let alone if humans have a natural capacity for it or not.

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The "dodging" around here is being done by the evos who can't think their way out of a paper bag but lord it over the creos though they can't follow the simplest point.

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Hey, remember the replies Crash and I gave to your questions about why humans prefer to eat fat and sugar over vegetables that you never anwered?How about showing all of us how it's done and rebut those responses?

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There's a real world out there, Schraf. You might want to check it out sometime.

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Yes, and in the "real world", people are really bad at logic, even though you've claimed otherwise.Since my claims are based on established evidence, and yours are based upon...something else, I think we both know who is living in the real world and who likes to make stuff up.But anyway, your comment is irrelevant, unresponsive, and evasive.

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What is the point of this test?

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The Wason card task is a very basic abstract logic task.If logic is so "natural" to humans, as you claim, the task should be pretty easy for everyone.

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I disagree with that. It really isn't a logic task at all.

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Uh, yes it is.It is a prototypical basic logic task that has been used to test logic ability in people for years.

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You amuse me no end, Schraf, with your little academic quizzes.

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I understand that it must be so embarrasing and so painful to be countered so thoroughly that you must resort to defensive, anti-academic condescention.

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I have 20 years' experience judging real people who have minimal academic training, and I can tell you they can recognize a fallacy if you present it to them clearly.

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Yes, many can understand a fallacy when it is presented to them clearly.That has nothing to do with natural ability to do logic, which is what you claimed humas have.Good lord, have you ever read the letters to the editor section of any newspaper? That alone should be evidence enough that logic is not natural to humans, and that fallacious thinking abounds in the population.

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But you don't care about that. Go ahead and live in your little academic dream world of logical puzzles, your psychological tests and the like.

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Why are you so afraid of learning about this? I imagine you would find it fascinating if you ever began to entertain the notion that your personal opinions do not constitute rigorous scientific evidence.

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As if those little quizzes could describe a human being.

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The Wason card task studies very strikingly demonstrate one aspect of being human.We suck at formal logic.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-05-2006 04:55 PM