What led you to God?

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OK...Hmmmm... A nail can be hammered with a wrench or a screwdriver as well as with a hammer, eh?

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I was trying to put a bulletin board in my bedroom once. My younger brother walked in and saw I was hammering in the nails with the back of a wrench. He shook his head and mummbled something about me being an idiot. Nevertheless, I hammered those nails in with the back of that wrench and the bulletin board hangs still today.The reason for the creation of the hammer was to fullfill the subjective purpose of its maker. That purpose being to hammer nails into some material. Other people may very well find their own purpose for the hammer. The hammer itself cannot have its own purpose, therefore any purpose given to it, is given to it in a subjective way.Trék

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

So lets take the wrench then. Suppose Mr. Martian were to land on Earth today. He sees a wrench lying on the ground and picks it up. He is not sure what it does, but plays with it for a while; he tests it on different objects. First he tries to turn in a screw on his space craft. It doesn't work very well, in fact, he accomplishes nothing. He then decides to hammer in some loose nails on his craft. Compared to the tools he uses, the wrench works considerably well, and he can hammer the nails in half the time. He then notices a few loose bolts. He tries to turn them in with the wrench, but it cannot fit on the bolts. He tries on some different sized bolts, no luck. Eventually, however, he finds a bolt that the wrench fits perfectly. He turns it in with little effort. He is not overly impressed by this, however, his home planet of Mars has plenty of wrenches, but no such thing as a hammer. He concludes that the objective purpose (the formal purpose), (the inherent purpose), is to hammer nails, while the purpose of being able to turn in bolts is only an added feature.Is the Martian right? Is he wrong? Can right/wrong be determined in such a scenario?The answer to all three of those questions is "no." The Martian cannot be right, nor can he be wrong, because right and wrong cannot be determined. The only mistake made by the Martian was to assume an objective purpose existed for the wrench. Clearly, one does not.I am not going to argue, however, that turning in a bolt is not a better purpose to find for the wrench than hammering, but my decision here is too subjective. For the Martian found hammering to be the best purpose for the wrench. Best, better, worse, worst... all are subjective as well, but lets not go there here.Trék

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

But the maker does not determine a Formal Purpose. There is no such thing as a Formal Purpose. The maker makes the item for his own subjective purpose(s).See what Faith wrote about my elephant statue. Faith thinks that the purpose of the statue is to represent an elephant. But I as the maker (by your argument) am the one who determines Formal Purpose. Is Faith wrong in saying the elephant has a Formal Purpose other than that decided for it by its maker, me?Trék

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

It lacks such a purpose, becuase a purpose of such type does not exist.Trék

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

Humans do not have a Formal Purpose, nor are we above one, for if we were above one, one would have to exist in the first place.Purposes are all subjective. Trying to say that any purpose ultimately applies to humans is wrong. No purposes apply to humans that we can all see. We have imaginary purpose, and that is it. So yes, our purpose/purposes is/are arbitrary.Now... if we could only agree on the fact that nothing has an objective purpose.Trék

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

Sorry I didn't get around to this before, I completely missed it.Let's deal with what you've said.Contradiction:You are dealing with a "contradiction" that isn't contradictory. If the apple is red and green, and you say "the apple is red and green," then you have not contradicted anything, neither has the statement itself. If we are dealing in logic, then a contradiction IS, by its definition, FALSE. If it isn't false, then it isn't a contradiction. Anyone claiming that a part of the Bible is contradictory when it really isn't is either lying, or mistaken.All-Loving God:I've even heard believers say this, and as a non-believer, I don't agree. From what I've read in the Bible, God is very much a vengeful, jealous deity. I would never make a statement claiming God to be all-loving.Understanding God:Of course God isn't a theory. If He does exist, He is a being of some sort or another. This does not mean that God cannot be understood, unless, of course, you are talking about a "theory that can be understood" as one thing, in which case, what you've said here is pointless, because I never said God was a theory.Challenging Me:I think I've addressed all your points now; please, tell me if I've missed any .Trék

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species