What led you to God?

I was raised as an Evangelical Christian. I used to believe in God; I even went so far as defending His existence, but that has changed.All the people around me told me of His existence, but I just never really sensed it. I mean, I am one of those people who has to see it for himself. Someone telling me of God wasn't enough, and so I am still at the point of waiting for someone to show me Him. No one has yet done that, and so I must simply believe that He doesn't exist.Perhaps a good Christian here could give me some pointers on how to communicate with God and I could give it a try. If I do manage to make contact, then I guess I would have to say I believe.Trék

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

Perhaps we could say that that particular car was built with all those purposes in mind, in a similar way as a human was built with all the things he can do as being intended purposes.I'm not trying to justify Creationism, but just trying to point out an argument for Creationism/ID/God/Religion/the rest of the non-Scientific sciences.Trék

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

Okay, I think I've got you understood on that point ; thanks for the extra clarification.The problem I now see is trying to determine what a formal purpose is. Who is to say that the formal purpose of that car is to get from A to B, and not simply to spin tires really fast? I'd have to wonder if the inventor of the car himself would even be able to list a single formal purpose.Trék

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

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Not that second, no. But it doesn't take long. Someone else will fill up your place and soon it will be as though you never existed, hardly of any more account than the sagebrush rolling along the prairie.

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Why should that matter? Dying and rotting in the ground is something I would most desperately like to prevent, but I cannot. So, while I'm sitting here, I think I should make the most of my time. If I KNEW that I would live forever, I might not be moving through school so fast, getting a job so soon, reading and learning so much. I'd probably just sit back and relax, let the times fly by me... picking up what I need as I go along.It's the shortness of life that makes me value it so much more. Take [Dan's Clever Alias] food analogy. Imagine a loaf of bread, and a 3 oz. steak. Would you value the loaf of bread more simply because there is more of it? Even if the amount of available bread was infinite, it would still not be as valuable as that last lone piece of steak. Most likely you'd scarf down the bread as you were starving, but savour each bite of the steak, simply because there is less of it.TrékEdit: added quote to clarify to what was being respondedThis message has been edited by Invictus, 01/17/2006 05:47 PM

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

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The question isn't "Do we have purposes." Haven't we all agreed that we do?

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No, I do not think we have. Your purposes are all subjective. Why should we believe that the purpose of a human is to raise children? Some people's purpose isn't even to pursuade others. It would seem as though such purposes can only be recognized after the fact, which doesn't say a lot about their meaningfulness.As for your ideas on Purpose, of which Purpose are you thinking? I mean, a Purpose is as subjective as a purpose, unless we can all come to an agreement on the existence/non-existence of God/god, and whether or not He/(he/she/it) did have a Purpose in mind for our existence.TrékThis message has been edited by Invictus, 01/18/2006 02:00 AM

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

We do have a purpose, despite not being created. The thing is that the purpose is subjective. Each person's purpose is what he makes it to be. This is because there is no objective purpose, such as we might find in a car, but simply a purpose that we must invent on our own.And there is certainly no evidence for there being a Purpose.And hey Faith... why don't you join us in chat?Trék

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

Why is what you say logic? And if what I say isn't logic, what is it?Trék

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

Transporting us is the purpose for which we use the car. A cat might very well realize that the car has no purpose, and would certainly fail to see its Purpose. I mean, the car was made for US, by US, to fullfill OUR purpose. The car itself has no purpose(s); only that(those) which one finds for it. A cat might find the warmth of the car its most important (as its been worded "Formal") purpose, but that does not mean that is it's actual purpose.So, even if God does exist, and He made humans for His purpose; that would not mean that that purpose was ours as well. God's purpose for creating humans is every bit as subjective as the purpose a human finds in its automobile that it created, and what purpose the cat finds in it.In the end, it is not the maker that determines the purpose, but rather each individual that uses the product--whatever that use may be. To say that God's "Purpose" is any bit more objective than one which we may find within ourselves, is the same as saying that the purpose of the person driving the car is more objective than the purpose of the car as used by drug addicts to hang out in and smoke weed.Simply put: even IF there is God, and even IF He did create us; His purpose is no more objective than one recognized by anyone else.Trék

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

You are talking about two different things here:1) What the car was made for, and
2) What the car's purpose is.The thing is, that once the maker has put the car into the hands of the public, he loses all claims on deciding its purpose. He made the car, but he has no right to decide the purpose for which it is used by others. I will rephrase this incase it is too sophisticated.Event: I make Car
Reason: To fullfil my subjective purpose
Purpose: Subjective
MY purpose: Hide out in and smoke weed
Purpose recognized in general by society: Move from point A to point B
Objective "P or p"urpose: NONEA reason and a purpose are two differint things. Just because the reson to make the car was to fullfill the purpose, does not mean that that is also the purpose. In this sense, the purpose would be to fullfill the purpose, which is circular logic at best.TrékThis message has been edited by Invictus, 01/18/2006 03:42 PM

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

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You've got yourself so entangled in a logic mess there is no extricating you I'm afraid.

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It couldn't hurt to try, could it?Now as for the purpose of the automobile in question. Just because the maker makes it with his own purpose in mind, does not mean that that is its purpose. No one, not even the maker, can decide what objective purpose an object has, because purpose is ALL subjective.Suppose I carve a statue of an elephant for my own purpose of using it to decorate my yard. Someone else, seeing the statue, realizes that it works very well in scaring away the local neighborhood hoolagans from stealing apples off his tree. In an effort to protect his tree, he carves a statue identical to mine and places it in his back yard. What is the purpose of his statue?What is the purpose of mine, as it too scares away local neighborhood hoolagans?Trék

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

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But we aren't defining Purpose by who drives the car but by who made it and what it was made for. See above.

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No, you are defining purpose in this manner. We are defining purpose as that which is found for it by the user.Trék

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

NO! I am the maker of that elephant statue, and being its maker (by your very own logic) I have the RIGHT to give to it what Purpose I please!This own post of yours goes AGAINST everything else you have been trying to say to me.As for the truce: I see no need. A truce is only needed when one side has not already claimed vicotory. Trék

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

Are you serious? You've said nothing at all. Most of your rant doesn't have any meaning; nonsensical in many places, redundant in others.If we prove that there is a better explanation than God, we can conclude a variety of different things:1) God doesn't exist
2) God does exist, but is unnecessary
L__a) God is not worh worshipping
L__b) God's power is not proven
L__c) God's presence cannot be shown
---L__i) God's power cannot be shown
---L__ii) The default position of disbilief must be takenThe very fact that you point out how wealthier people are less likely to believe in God, is evidence of the controlling nature of religion. I mean, a belief in God works very well in keeping the poor masses from rising against the rich.Oh, and contradiction DOES = false. The statement: (x=y and x=/y) is a false statement, because it can NEVER be true. (=/ means "does not equal").TrékThis message has been edited by Invictus, 01/19/2006 11:21 AM

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

I would hope that no one would take sides. We should agree with what someone says, not with the person themselves.And why does Faith need a lawyer?Trék

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

To acknowledge someone knocking on my soul, I would have to first conclude that I had one.Trék

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species