Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,914 Year: 4,171/9,624 Month: 1,042/974 Week: 1/368 Day: 1/11 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   You are.
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 154 of 275 (257047)
11-05-2005 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Christian7
11-04-2005 9:31 PM


Re: One
No, physics accounts for rivers. How else can we explain the motion of the water? Physics accounts for phenomona, geography and other such things allows us to understand it on the big scale.
The river isn't the water. Before long, all of the water currently in the river will have flowed out to sea. Yet the river will still be there.
Physics accounts for the motion of water molecules in terms of the forces acting on them. Geography gives you a better account of why there is water there in the first place.
said that is like saying waves CAN be conscious, if complex enough.
I have not in any way suggested that waves could be conscious.
A process is just the result of interacting particles. Only spacial events occur, I don't see why you insist on attributing this to consciousness.
I guess the internet doesn't exist, since there are only interacting particles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2005 9:31 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Christian7, posted 11-05-2005 11:44 AM nwr has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 188 of 275 (257161)
11-05-2005 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Christian7
11-05-2005 6:57 PM


Re: One
OK, well the way I see it, nobody has won this debate.
That was to be expected, given that science has not resolved all of the problems yet.
In any case, I think it was a good discussion. I hope you found it useful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Christian7, posted 11-05-2005 6:57 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Christian7, posted 11-05-2005 9:18 PM nwr has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 210 of 275 (259443)
11-13-2005 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Christian7
11-13-2005 6:39 PM


free will = pragmatic choice
Guidosoft writes:
Also, if we don't have a soul, then we shouldn't have free will.
Are you implying that if we have free will, then we automatically have a soul?
Can anyone give me a theory on how free will works from a physical materialistic view.
What makes free will seem difficult, is that most people take it as obvious that atoms, and things make of atoms, could not have free will. Rather, they are normally presumed to act in ways described by physical laws.
Before we can consider whether we have free will, we must first consider what we are. I attempted to discuss that, starting in Message 39, where I suggested that we are systems of processes. What seems obvious about atoms not having free will does not seem to apply to processes. That doesn't mean that processes have free will, but it at least means that free will is not so obviously ruled out.
We also have to consider what we mean by "free will." And there it becomes controversial, because people have very different ideas about what free will is.
My own take on the question, is that "free will" is just the name we use for pragmatic choice. Thus we have free will to the extent that we are able to make decisions (I call them judgements) based on how well they will work for us. So I see free will closely tied with our ability to make decisions on a pragmatic basis.
Computers, robots, etc, are usually taken as not having free will. Based on what I have suggested above, you can see why. For a computer makes its decision entirely on the basis of truth or falsity. It has no capability of making pragmatic judgements. And no software program can change that. The program can control which truth and falsity conditions are examined, but it cannot act in ways that would correspond to making pragmatic judgements.
By contrast, biological system are well equipped for pragmatic judgements. Evolution itself is dependent on the pragmatics of natural selection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Christian7, posted 11-13-2005 6:39 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Ben!, posted 11-13-2005 9:02 PM nwr has replied
 Message 212 by be LIE ve, posted 11-13-2005 9:19 PM nwr has replied
 Message 218 by Christian7, posted 11-17-2005 5:24 PM nwr has replied
 Message 223 by bkelly, posted 11-17-2005 8:44 PM nwr has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 213 of 275 (259452)
11-13-2005 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Ben!
11-13-2005 9:02 PM


Re: free will = pragmatic choice
Ben writes:
If pragmatic judgments are not partially based on truth or falsity, what are they based on?
To oversimplify, pragmatic judgements are based on pain avoidance and hunger satisfaction. (Toss in sexual gratification too, if you like).
To get closer to a physicalist explanation, I see pragmatic judgement as being closely related to measurement. A biological system has many homeostatic subsystems. A homeostatic subsystem is, in effect, measuring its own state and using that in a feedback loop to control its behavior. I see the behavior of such a homeostatic subsystem as a "pragmatic judgement device" (analogous to a logic device). Biological systems are rich in these pragmatic judgement devices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Ben!, posted 11-13-2005 9:02 PM Ben! has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 214 of 275 (259453)
11-13-2005 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by be LIE ve
11-13-2005 9:19 PM


Re: free will = pragmatic choice
be LIE ve writes:
free will is the assimilation of what to do about things that need to be done.
Not sure. I'm finding "the assimilation of what to do about things that need to be done" vaguer and more confusing than free will. I don't see how that helps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by be LIE ve, posted 11-13-2005 9:19 PM be LIE ve has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 221 of 275 (260693)
11-17-2005 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Christian7
11-17-2005 5:24 PM


Re: free will = pragmatic choice
Guidosoft writes:
So let's assume that time travel is possible. If time travel is possible then the world in which I leave should co-exist with the destination time. So 1943 should co-exist with 2005.
I'm quite skeptical about time travel.
And according to relativity, I believe it is, certain time for certain places with less mass go quicker, like in space, than places with greater mass.
However, this does not provide any basis for making time travel possible.
herefore, if your father, an astronot, goes into space, and time goes ever so slighty quicker for him, meaning he moves a bit quicker in time, then when he returns to you, are you talking to the father with the same consciousness as the one who left?
I think the answer is the yes, same person.
I agree with you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Christian7, posted 11-17-2005 5:24 PM Christian7 has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 224 of 275 (260748)
11-17-2005 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by bkelly
11-17-2005 8:44 PM


Re: true or false is misleading
Computers make decisions based on:
is A < B
is A = B
is A > B
and combinations thereof. Truth or false has implications beyond what I think you intended.
Okay. I was perhaps obtuse. I consider those to all be questions with a true or false answer.
Compare to questions such as:
  • shall I have vanilla, chocolate or peach ice cream?
  • Shall I use a standard lens or a wide angle lens to take the picture?
    These aren't choices that can easily be settled by true/false decisions.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 223 by bkelly, posted 11-17-2005 8:44 PM bkelly has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 225 by bkelly, posted 11-18-2005 8:26 AM nwr has not replied

    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 6412
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005
    Member Rating: 5.3


    Message 235 of 275 (261247)
    11-19-2005 10:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 233 by Christian7
    11-19-2005 10:23 AM


    Re: Opinion are extremely complex
    However Consciousness is a good word for it. You do not need computers to know what consciousness is, since sillicon and electricity will never produce consciousness, and neither can physical celliar organisms alone.
    You assert more than you can possibly know. This is unwise, and will get you into unnecessary arguments.
    Lisp, I assume, but don't know for sure, is crap.
    At least you admitted lack of knowledge there.
    Also, Object Oriented Programming can simulate a neural network no?
    Be careful with that kind of argument. When we simulate something, we only simulate certain aspects. Software simulations of neurons don't simulate their chemistry. They only simulate certain behaviors that the programmer has assumed are the important ones. But maybe those aren't the important ones after all.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 233 by Christian7, posted 11-19-2005 10:23 AM Christian7 has not replied

    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024