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Author | Topic: is the US sliding into Fascism? Evidence for and against | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
i don't think you value your freedom of association and privacy as much as i do.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Hey, great!
Let me know if you want any recommendations.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: There were much worse, much more brutal dictators butchering millions in Africa about the same time we invaded Iraq, which was a relatively stable (and secular) country until we invaded. Why didn't we invade those African nations, where millions were being butchered? I'll give you one guess. It's a three letter word, which starts with "o" and ends with "l". Iraq has the third largest reserve of it in the world, and those African nations don't have much of it at all in comparison.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
However, the flawed intelligence presented as justification for war in 2003 was still the responsibility of the adminstration in power to verify. They produced it and convinced Congress to act on it. quote: So, you admit that the Bush Administration distorted the facts about Iraq and misled congress?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: It isn't that he's a Presbyterian. It isn't even that he may choose to live by a very strict personal Christian conservative religious code of conduct. It's that he is actively working, along with Dobson and the FRC and many other very conservative Christian religious groups, to pass legislation to require ALL Americans to adhere to a similar very strict Christian conservative religious code of conduct. Tell me, when did traditional American conservative political values change from "government out of our lives" to "government intrudes upon everyone's personal lives, especially if you are gay, a woman, an activist, a political dissident, or look like you are Arab"? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 05-11-2005 11:37 PM
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5850 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
Awww Tal, dodging my star spangled reply to your communist view of a free market system? Oh well, I thought it was funny.
I hate to do this to you but... Yeah that was a great list of quotes. For some of those people it should be an embarrrassment, for others it should not because it does not suggest he had the capabilities claimed by this administration, nor that the actions taken by Bush were the appropriate ones. In particular, some of these were generated by the faulty US intelligence system, headed by Bush. What happened to the buck stops at his desk for major failures? Guess that went out with guts. Of course what you didn't cite were those quotes that did not necessarily agree with some of these. Indeed they came from Bush's own staff. Oh, make no mistake, I love doing this to you...
From Secretary Colin L. Powell Cairo, Egypt (Ittihadiya Palace) February 24, 2001, on Iraqi sanctions... We had a good discussion, the Foreign Minister and I and the President and I, had a good discussion about the nature of the sanctions -- the fact that the sanctions exist -- not for the purpose of hurting the Iraqi people, but for the purpose of keeping in check Saddam Hussein's ambitions toward developing weapons of mass destruction. We should constantly be reviewing our policies, constantly be looking at those sanctions to make sure that they are directed toward that purpose. That purpose is every bit as important now as it was ten years ago when we began it. And frankly they have worked. He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors. So in effect, our policies have strengthened the security of the neighbors of Iraq... And then again in May 2001, Powell testified before the Senate...
The sanctions, as they are called, have succeeded over the last 10 years, not in deterring him from moving in that direction, but from actually being able to move in that direction. The Iraqi regime militarily remains fairly weak. It doesn't have the capacity it had 10 or 12 years ago. It has been contained. And even though we have no doubt in our mind that the Iraqi regime is pursuing programs to develop weapons of mass destruction -- chemical, biological and nuclear -- I think the best intelligence estimates suggest that they have not been terribly successful. There's no question that they have some stockpiles of some of these sorts of weapons still under their control, but they have not been able to break out, they have not been able to come out with the capacity to deliver these kinds of systems or to actually have these kinds of systems that is much beyond where they were 10 years ago. And gosh darn it if he wasn't right the first time. And in July 2001, Condoleeza Rice said...
in terms of Saddam Hussein being there, let's remember that his country is divided, in effect. He does not control the northern part of his country. We are able to keep arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt. And you know what? It turns out she was right too. What about these quotes? holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5850 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
It's easy to forget that others wanted Saddam to go by force and not just the "fascist republican administration who wants to take over of the world". I hope you are able to discern actual information, from disinformation, which is what Tal has just brought you. While it shows that people were concerned about Iraq, and had bought into certain US intelligence reports, none of them suggest support for the course of action that Bush actually took. There is a world of difference between viewing Saddam as someone to keep in check vs someone that ought to be overthrown, and if overthrown, through what mechanisms. Remember even Bush is now dismissing that WMDs were the main reason and it is about a humanitarian social welfare program for the Iraqi people, in order to spread democracy... at US taxpayer expense. holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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EZscience Member (Idle past 5184 days) Posts: 961 From: A wheatfield in Kansas Joined: |
schraf writes: Iraq has the third largest reserve of it in the world, and those African nations don't have much of it at all in comparison. Actually the second largest after Saudi Arabia.But we already have the leadership there pretty much in line It was obvious that an invasion of Iraq would cause oil prices to spike.What never seems to get any coverage is how Bush and all the American oil industries that supported him are raking in millions in extra profit from their domestic production as a result of this effort to 'spread democracy'.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Yeah, funny how Bush is such good friends (personal family friends, too) with the leadership of a country that engages in: public beheadingstorture severe curtailing of religious freedoms, especially of Christians significant oppression of women Maybe Bush got some good ideas about torture from the Saudis, who knows?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Tell me, when did traditional American conservative political values change from "government out of our lives" to "government intrudes upon everyone's personal lives, especially if you are gay, a woman, an activist, a political dissident, or look like you are Arab"? You have it backwards. Conservatives are trying to get the government out of our lives with their legislation to force us all to adhere to and financially support political programs we detest, and that were never a part of US policy until the PC police took over. Leave us alone, we leave you alone. This message has been edited by Faith, 05-12-2005 08:43 AM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What never seems to get any coverage is how Bush and all the American oil industries that supported him are raking in millions in extra profit from their domestic production as a result of this effort to 'spread democracy'. Please substantiate these allegations. Otherwise you are engaging in slander. This message has been edited by Faith, 05-12-2005 08:42 AM
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EZscience Member (Idle past 5184 days) Posts: 961 From: A wheatfield in Kansas Joined: |
Did you hear about the islamic Canadian who was intercepted by American security forces on some international flight a couple months ago?
They shipped him off to Syria where he was held captive, beaten and tortured, only to be finally released as innocent after Canadian consular officials got involved? Made quite a stir in Canada. This administration will do anything to deny its perceived enemies the rights and respect it affords its own citizens. And as we both know, it would dearly love to reduce those rights for its own citizens as well !
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Monk Member (Idle past 3955 days) Posts: 782 From: Kansas, USA Joined: |
Hi schraf
quote: So you would have supported invading those African nations..eh? I doubt it. Would it have made a difference if the Bush admin had invaded those nations? No, there would have been a uproar against defenseless Africans. The far left would have ignored the butchering by those nations just as they did in Saddam's Iraq
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Alexander Inactive Member |
Just a note:
I think you mean extra money in tax breaks. Most oil companies don't gain as significantly as you'd think from oil price spikes. (Especially from oil price spikes; a long ramping-up of prices helps the bottom line.) 'Most temperate in the pleasures of the body, his passion was for glory only, and in that he was insatiable.'
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Monk Member (Idle past 3955 days) Posts: 782 From: Kansas, USA Joined: |
schrafinator writes: Yeah, funny how Bush is such good friends (personal family friends, too) with the leadership of a country that engages in:public beheadings torture severe curtailing of religious freedoms, especially of Christians significant oppression of women No, it’s not funny that Bush has to be friendly with the Saudis. It’s a matter of necessity and of national interest. Whether you like it or not, the Saudis and in particular OPEC control a significant portion of the world’s oil supply. I don’t like it, Bush doesn’t like it, but that’s the way it is. It is naive to ignore that fact. Many US presidents have had to endure tenuous relationships with the Saudis because of it. This goes back to FDR after WWII:
quote: So it is disingenuous for you to imply that the Bush administration is maintaining this long standing marriage of convenience with the Saudis for purely personal reasons and that he is the only US president to do so. This message has been edited by Monk, Thu, 05-12-2005 08:23 AM
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