is the US sliding into Fascism? Evidence for and against

In a recent thread, Monk poo-pooed several posters' suspicion and fears that the current NeoCon-controlled governement was leading the country towards a facist police state.What is everyone's opinion, and what evidence is that opinion based upon?This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-26-2005 07:40 AM

The following is taken from one of my posts in the "O'Reilly Evidence" thread:The current presidency is the most secretive and closed we have seen in decades. The President gives no press conferences. The white house secertly pays journalists to promote it's ideas.This first Patriot act is a serious assault upon our civil rights, so much so that Americans no longer have a right to due process (habeas corpus). It is being abused by law enforcement as we speak.There is even a Patriot Act 2 which would go even further towards creating a police state, allowing secret arrests and secret trials (essentially making someone "dissappear"), the removal of citizenship and deportation of native-born Americans even if they have not done anything illegal. All police restrictions upon spying on citizens would be removed. Anti-war protesters and any dissidents, under the PA2, could be defined as terrorists.Furthermore, none of these activities would be under Congressional (or any outside) oversight.I absolutely do believe that the US is sliding into Facism, and I am heartbroken that we put these assholes back in power.Laurence W. Britt, Facism Anyone?For the purpose of this perspective, I will consider the following regimes: Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Francos Spain, Salazars Portugal, Papadopouloss Greece, Pinochets Chile, and Suhartos Indonesia. To be sure, they constitute a mixed bag of national identities, cultures, developmental levels, and history. But they all followed the fascist or protofascist model in obtaining, expanding, and maintaining power. Further, all these regimes have been overthrown, so a more or less complete picture of their basic characteristics and abuses is possible.Analysis of these seven regimes reveals fourteen common threads that link them in recognizable patterns of national behavior and abuse of power. These basic characteristics are more prevalent and intense in some regimes than in others, but they all share at least some level of similarity.1. Powerful and continuing nationalism
2. Disdain for human rights
3. Identification of enemies / scapegoats as a unifying cause
4. Supremacy of the military
5. Rampant sexism
6. Controlled mass media
7. Obsession with national security
8. Religion and governmment intertwined
9. Corporate power protected
10. Labor power suppressed
11. Disdain for intellectuals and the arts
12. Obsession with crime and punishment
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption
14. Fraudulent elections

I'm afraid we have already become a Fascist Nation. It began under Ronald Reagan and has continued to today. But we also have some safeguards not available in the countries you mentioned. We do have a Supreme Court and short term elections.The big issue IMHO is whether or not the general citizenry want a Fascist Nation? Fascist governments are efficient and can react quickly to public opinion or frankly, suppress disenting opinion.While many may protest such acts in theory, I see equal numbers calling for such actions in fact. This extends across political bounds, across parties and across populus.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, the judicial system did just sit by and watched a handicapped citizen be starved to death. So I'll have to agree here (about the US). How would you compare the US military to the other countries you listed?The rest of your post is nonsense.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
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I find it interesting that people continue to act as if the current Republican administration is something new rather than one point on a very, very long trend.Many of the characteristics on that list have a long, long history in the US. But I would say that the list actually became complete during or after World War II, especially the military-worship and the over-arching concern over national security.A common joke is that, seeing how the US was fighting against fascism, the US lost WWII.Edited to correct a typo.This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 04-26-2005 11:43 AM

That's quick and easy, isn't it? Lovely neocon kneejerk reaction. Dismiss criticism and try to make it seem foolish. That person had clearly (by every judical finding of fact) not wanted maintenance should her condition become what it did. So, the "conservatives" used her as a publicity ploy, the anti-abortion lobby cynically jumped on the bandwagon not because they cared one whit about the desires of Terry Shiavo (back when she could have them) but because they thought the spillover might help their agenda. When the courts didn't give the conservatives what they wanted, they did an end run around the separation of powers (where was the concern for local government and states rights there?) and when they still didn't get what they wanted, they publicly considered investigating the judges.The assinine neocon "concern" for Tery Shiavo sickens me. It is naked political self interest and transparent manipulation. That anyone could fall for it is laughable. Bush and his servitors in congress cared for that family? Bull.Any reasonable person who forms their own ideas and doesn't get their opinions from neocon propoganda knew the right thing to do was follow Terry Shiavo and her next-of-kin's wishes.What exactly does following the express wishes of an adult have to do with human rights?Tal, you have drunk the kool-aid. I got no problem with the men and women in the ranks of the military. They're doing a job and following orders. The command structure that creates secret prisons in blatant disregard of treaties we are signatory to. Read the Geneva Convention and the terms it sets for prisoners of war and non aligned combatants. Here's the short form... we are obligated to either treat those captured as POW's or turn them over to a duly constituted legal system, either that of America's or of their country of origin. None of this has been done for the "detainees".

this is a simple question of definition.fascism, according to bennito mussolini, is more correctly called "corporatism" because it is the merger of state and economic power.so, who controls the state? who controls the largest corporation? how much overlap or influence is there?then we'll know if we're becoming fascist.

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אָרַח

So basically what you're saying is we should forget about the consitution and lawful process and just base everything on the Good Book.Oh peaches! I can't wait to live there!I hope that Official National Religion will be one that won't have me wake up too too early on Sundays.This message has been edited by dsv, Tuesday, April 26, 2005 12:13 PM

I think the onus is on the op to show evidence/examples of "Rampant sexism," "Disdain for intellectuals and the arts," or "Labor power suppressed."It's quick and easy to tell me my response is quick and easy. I simply don't see the rest of the post as having any substance. If you think a particular point has substance, lets here why you think it does and discuss it. No, I have no "political self interest" or "transparent manipulation." What I do have an issue with is that our Government starved a handicapped citizen to death. No, Micheal Shiavo reversed his story about that. Nothing, but lets save the dolphins. Oh we can do POW status.Let's review the criteria for POW status. Now, in order to qualify for POW status, you have meet the criteria listed in a through d. So, lets examine the average bad guy in Iraq and how/if they fulfill those criteria.A. I'll have to give you the fact that they do have supervisors and commanders.B. Fixed, distinctive, recognizable insignia? No. They blend in as best they can with the local population.C. No, they dont' carry arms openly. They hide them, then dig them up and use them to attack when it is convenient for them. Then they throw there arms down and run when the Apaches come in.D. I'm fairly certain they don't conduct their operations IAW any rules anywhere. They blow up Iraqi civillians, including kids, and cut the heads off pretty much anyone (they've actually heads off of "CIA" agents who were just joe shmo Iraqi).So, they fail 3 out of 4. Now, tell me where it says this. I want the long form.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
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Before this thread spirals to a few hundred angry posts, I have a historical question I'm sure someone can answer: were all public officials appointed during WWII in Germany and Italy, or were some freely elected? I doubt any where, but I'm curious.On the rest of the topic, some of scraf's list are pertinent (religion, nationalism, human rights), the others not so much. Does anyone else detect an epidemic of sexism or corruption? A few months ago, I would have agreed that the pendulum of politics has simply swung in favor of conservativism, which is a natural reaction to decades of democratic majority, and eventually it would swing back. But the disproportionate power of fundamentalist christians and the recent assault on judges is more than a little worrisome. Anyone catch this Sunday's special on satellite?

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'Most temperate in the pleasures of the body, his passion was for glory only, and in that he was insatiable.'

Almost all were freely elected. Once in office things changed, but one good example was that Mussolini was actually voted out of office and stepped down.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I agree with everything you said up until the recent assault on judges. I would like to discuss this further. Can you be more specific? So far I've only seen the legislature attempt to excercise its Constitutional authority for checks/balances on the judiciary.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

Hi Jar,I should have been more specific. I knew Hitler was freely elected, I meant after the Nazi party had free run of the country. As in, were there any public elections held at any level, or were all judges and governors and such appointed?

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'Most temperate in the pleasures of the body, his passion was for glory only, and in that he was insatiable.'

Hi Tal,Congress has been exercising its authority to check the judiciary-in the form of filibuster aimed to prevent some of Bush's appointments. I have a feeling that this isnt what you mean. I don't care much about that, Gingrich and Co. held up the same proportion of Clinton's nominees in the 90's. What isn't so hot is the idea of changing senate rules to do away with the filibuster. But, still, its constitutionally legal, just not a good idea.The real assault has yet to come. The Sunday broadcast is the beginning of a grass roots campaign to remove activist judges, whatever they are. This is the problem. The whole point of the courts is to protect the country from a rabid majority. The court is supposed to be above populist attacks.

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'Most temperate in the pleasures of the body, his passion was for glory only, and in that he was insatiable.'

Did newt and the boys use filibusters to block nominees who otherwise would have passed? No, the point of the courts is to correctly intepret the laws passed by the congress. They are supposed to be free from political pressure sure. Their job is to intepret law. That doesn't mean that they are not accountable. The problem is these "activist" judges are either setting national policy that has not been passed by congress, or in some cases they are telling the legislatures what laws they MUST pass!This message has been edited by Tal, 04-26-2005 01:44 PM

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us