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Author Topic:   Is this Bible verse about believers and poison to be taken literally?
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 16 of 142 (202812)
04-26-2005 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by mike the wiz
04-26-2005 8:48 PM


quote:
It says many things will believers do.
No, that passage refers only to the drinking of deadly things and the laying on of hands to cure the ill.
quote:
Does it say one believer shall accomplish them all?
It says that these kinds of acts are how people will be able to identify people as Christians. Proof, as it were.
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following.
This seems to say to me that at least some of the Christian preachers and priests should be able to drink poison without any harm, even if the followers are exempted.
Of course, Mark 16 is pretty clear that these signs would follow those who believe, not just preachers.
quote:
DOes it say it is a law that one believer must complete these tasks when assigned as stumbling blocks by none-believers?
No, but they are supposed to be able to be done by believers. Surely, we should see some centuries-long tradition of "deadly thing-drinking" among believers, continuing up to the present, if this was something that was literally true.
Same for the laying on of hands to heal illness. Surely, you wouldn't not cure someone simply because an unbeliever asked you to.
Anyway, these were supposed to be proofs:
...and confirming the word with signs following.
I hardly think that these abilities were meant to be hidden. They were meant to impress non-believers and convert them to this new religion.
I would convert right now if I saw a couple of Christians drink bleach or drain cleaner and walk away uninjured.
quote:
I believe many have done all these things, as testimonies have reached my ears. Even Paul was poisoned, yet came to no harm).
Yeah, yeah, more "I heard it someplace that X really happened".
I want to see it for myself, not be assured that it happened but can't be shown now.
So, mike, you basically dodged the question. What does the passage say that believers can do? I see three things. What are they?
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by mike the wiz, posted 04-26-2005 8:48 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by dsv, posted 04-26-2005 9:15 PM nator has not replied
 Message 18 by mike the wiz, posted 04-26-2005 9:15 PM nator has replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4754 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 17 of 142 (202814)
04-26-2005 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by nator
04-26-2005 9:07 PM


This seems to say to me that at least some of the Christian preachers and priests should be able to drink poison without any harm, even if the followers are exempted.
Duh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by nator, posted 04-26-2005 9:07 PM nator has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 18 of 142 (202815)
04-26-2005 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by nator
04-26-2005 9:07 PM


I want to see it for myself, not be assured that it happened but can't be shown now.
"if you are the son of God, make this stone bread" - satan.
A sign for a sign's sake Shraff? I think not.
Why would I take poison and drink it? You mis-understand. If I was given posion, and drank it - I would come to no harm. I have heard this testimony from an anointed man of God - a preacher. Are not preachers also believers?
But to go out and look for poison that I may tempt God, why on earth would that prove anything? It was given to those preachers BECAUSE they were preaching, and that would prove the Lord was with those believers. Ans they were in places where they could come to harm, and lay hands on many sick.

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 Message 16 by nator, posted 04-26-2005 9:07 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by dsv, posted 04-26-2005 9:25 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 20 by nator, posted 04-26-2005 9:28 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 04-26-2005 10:20 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4754 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 19 of 142 (202823)
04-26-2005 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by mike the wiz
04-26-2005 9:15 PM


Are we not in the same crisis of faith? It's even pointed out by Phat in his post about modern culture.
Where are the poison drinkers that should be showing us that God is here and we should accept his word? Are we less important than the people He was trying to convert so many centuries ago?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by mike the wiz, posted 04-26-2005 9:15 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 04-26-2005 10:09 PM dsv has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 20 of 142 (202825)
04-26-2005 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by mike the wiz
04-26-2005 9:15 PM


What should believers be able to do according to that passage, mike?

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 Message 18 by mike the wiz, posted 04-26-2005 9:15 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 21 of 142 (202827)
04-26-2005 9:33 PM


Dsv and Shraff, if you look at this with doubt then you'll only get a conclusion of doubt. All these things, a believer can do, and believers have done and will, because God said they would.
What does this lead to Shraff, what is your conclusion? That there is no Yahweh? I need to know.

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 142 (202833)
04-26-2005 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
04-25-2005 10:24 PM


It has a specific context, doesn't mean "all"
The problem with this question is that like so many other challenges to the Bible, the challenger has a specific way of understanding the verse being challenged, and is likely to hold onto it through endless attempts to give the orthodox understanding of it. You are sure it is saying that ALL Christians ALWAYS will exhibit these immunities to dangers, and that since all obviously don't, the passage is false. I don't relish having to argue with you about that meaning of it through 300 posts of a thread.
I don't see the passage as promising anything but the occasional manifestation of God's power as needed to protect those who took the gospel into the world, no promise that ALL believers would have that kind of protection. The apostolic generation exhibited many powers for the purpose of propagating the gospel that gradually fell away as the churches got established. The apostle Paul is reported in the Book of Acts to have been bitten by a poisonous snake and not been harmed, but I think this is the only fulfillment of the Mark passage given in scripture. As Matthew Henry states (below), however, there are fulfillments documented in the history of the early Church.
Act 28:3-6 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid [them] on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand. And when the barbarians saw the [venomous] beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live. And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm. Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.
I figured that wouldn't be enough to answer you so I looked up the passage in a few commentaries until I found one that is thorough enough to be an answer (Matthew Henry below), and even then he doesn't make much of the reference to poison, though he says more about the other promises. Other commentaries on the verse (I checked three others) very briefly acknowledge that these things happened to the apostolic generation, as they faced many dangers in the greater world they were sent into, but they don't seem to treat it as anything needing a more thorough discussion, such as you are asking for.
Note: NONE of the commentaries doubts the authenticity of the passage, to answer jar; and as discussed on another thread, the majority of extant ancient texts contain the passage, more than 600 to 2, which also authenticates it.
Here is Matthew Henry on the subject:
Matthew Henry
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
3. What power they should be endowed with, for the confirmation of the doctrine they were to preach (v. 17); These signs shall follow them that believe. Not that all who believe, shall be able to produce these signs, but some, even as many as were employed in propagating the faith, and bringing others to it; for signs are intended for them that believe not; see 1 Co. 14:22. It added much to the glory and evidence of the gospel, that the preachers not only wrought miracles themselves, but conferred upon others a power to work miracles, which power followed some of them that believed, wherever they went to preach. They shall do wonders in Christ’s name, the same name into which they were baptized, in the virtue of power derived from him, and fetched in by prayer. Some particular signs are mentioned;
(1.) They shall cast out devils; this power was more common among Christians than any other, and lasted longer, as appears by the testimonies of Justin Martyr, Origen, Irenaeus, Tertullian Minutius Felix, and others, cited by Grotius on this place.
(2.) They shall speak with new tongues, which they had never learned, or been acquainted with; and this was both a miracle (a miracle upon the mind), for the confirming of the truth of the gospel, and a means of spreading the gospel among those nations that had not heard it. It saved the preachers a vast labour in learning the languages; and, no doubt, they who by miracle were made masters of languages, were complete masters of them and of all their native elegancies, which were proper both to instruct and affect, which would very much recommend them and their preaching.
(3.) They shall take up serpents. This was fulfilled in Paul, who was not hurt by the viper that fastened on his hand, which was acknowledged a great miracle by the barbarous people, Acts 28:5, 6. They shall be kept unhurt by that generation of vipers among whom they live, and by the malice of the old serpent.
(4.) If they be compelled by their persecutors to drink any deadly poisonous thing, it shall not hurt them: of which very thing some instances are found in ecclesiastical history. {I wish he had referenced some -F}
(5.) They shall not only be preserved from hurt themselves, but they shall be enabled to do good to others; They shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover, as multitudes had done by their master’s healing touch. Many of the elders of the church had this power, as appears by Jam. 5:14, where, as an instituted sign of this miraculous healing, they are said to anoint the sick with oil in the name of the Lord. With what assurance of success might they go about executing their commission, when they had such credentials as these to produce!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 04-25-2005 10:24 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 35 by nator, posted 04-27-2005 7:59 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 23 of 142 (202843)
04-26-2005 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by dsv
04-26-2005 9:25 PM


Why no miracles now?
Are we not in the same crisis of faith? It's even pointed out by Phat in his post about modern culture.
Where are the poison drinkers that should be showing us that God is here and we should accept his word? Are we less important than the people He was trying to convert so many centuries ago?
The signs and wonders were necessary in the pagan cultures that were completely in the dark about any claims to THE God of Hosts, being in spiritual bondage to a pantheon of lesser deities. Our culture, on the other hand, is gospel-saturated, though the gospel is attacked by its many enemies and distorted even among its supposed friends, and misrepresented by the Benny Hinns and Prosperity Gospel charlatans.
I can see God bringing mercy to the confused in this culture, however, if enough of us seek it, but I can also see God saying, Look, you've had the gospel in America since the Mayflower, if anyone has a sincere desire to understand it there are opportunities galore -- this generation of vipers will not be given a sign beyond what you already have in abundance.
OR, who knows, God might consider the darkness to have overtaken America to such a depth that He'd think it useful to provide a miracle or two. But if it doesn't happen, it's not as if you'd never heard the gospel

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 Message 19 by dsv, posted 04-26-2005 9:25 PM dsv has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by dsv, posted 04-26-2005 10:30 PM Faith has replied
 Message 28 by jar, posted 04-26-2005 10:43 PM Faith has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 24 of 142 (202845)
04-26-2005 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by nator
04-26-2005 7:06 PM


Well, Deuteronomy in the OT and the passage I am quoting is from the NT.
Wouldn't most Christian Biblical Literalists give more weight to the NT?
fair 'nuff.
quote:
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 04-26-2005 10:13 PM

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 25 of 142 (202850)
04-26-2005 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by mike the wiz
04-26-2005 9:15 PM


But to go out and look for poison that I may tempt God, why on earth would that prove anything? It was given to those preachers BECAUSE they were preaching, and that would prove the Lord was with those believers. Ans they were in places where they could come to harm, and lay hands on many sick.
I agree. Of course this is only a promise to protect the believers in the process of taking the gospel into a dangerous world where they may need special powers and protections, not a cheap magic trick that would be tempting God if any of us tried it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by mike the wiz, posted 04-26-2005 9:15 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4754 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 26 of 142 (202853)
04-26-2005 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
04-26-2005 10:09 PM


Re: Why no miracles now?
I understand where you're coming from, Faith (at least I think I do).
I suppose I just feel that the crisis that Christians of today's world face is not much different from what was experience in yesterday's time. To me, it seems like a God that was so involved and passionate about believing and faith, who was doing all he could (even sending his only begotten son) has since left us.
Why?
Is there anything to indicate that his plan was to set the wheels of the church in motion and then let them ride out without further involvement?

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 Message 23 by Faith, posted 04-26-2005 10:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 04-26-2005 10:48 PM dsv has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 27 of 142 (202855)
04-26-2005 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
04-26-2005 9:44 PM


Re: It has a specific context, doesn't mean "all"
You are sure it is saying that ALL Christians ALWAYS will exhibit these immunities to dangers, and that since all obviously don't, the passage is false.
well, i think you're right on target here. i think that is what this thread is about. the degree of flexibility, or how literal we should take stuff.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 04-26-2005 10:36 PM

אָרַח

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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 142 (202857)
04-26-2005 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
04-26-2005 10:09 PM


Just an aside.
but I can also see God saying, Look, you've had the gospel in America since the Mayflower,
is, of course, simply wrong. Not only was the Gospel brought to what became the US over 100 years earlier, the Mayflower group were not even the first English colonists. And they brought mostly intolerance, rather than Christianity.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 04-26-2005 10:09 PM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 29 of 142 (202859)
04-26-2005 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by dsv
04-26-2005 10:30 PM


Re: Why no miracles now?
I understand where you're coming from, Faith (at least I think I do).
I suppose I just feel that the crisis that Christians of today's world face is not much different from what was experience in yesterday's time. To me, it seems like a God that was so involved and passionate about believing and faith, who was doing all he could (even sending his only begotten son) has since left us.
Why?
But we ALWAYS have His only-begotten Son, who has said He will be with us always, even to the end of the world. What has been promised will never be taken away from those who believe.
God is sparing with His signs and wonders, uses them exactly as He thinks necessary for His purposes. One of His purposes is that He wants us to believe His preachers -- His witnesses of all kinds -- and not need visible proof of everything. I keep pointing to the passage about Thomas who refused to believe the other disciples that Jesus had risen from the tomb. Jesus went to him and showed him his wounds, and Thomas believed and worshiped HIm as his Lord and God, but in that same passage Jesus gently admonished him about his need for material proof: Jhn 20:29 "Jesus saith unto him, 'Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.'"
Is there anything to indicate that his plan was to set the wheels of the church in motion and then let them ride out without further involvement?
Not at all. He is involved with His believers all the time, in every age, no less now than ever, and anyone who isn't aware of His interventions is very likely not His -- at least not yet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by dsv, posted 04-26-2005 10:30 PM dsv has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by dsv, posted 04-26-2005 11:03 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 142 (202860)
04-26-2005 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
04-26-2005 10:43 PM


Re: Just an aside.
So the gospel came even earlier. Great. It's been here since the beginning is the point.

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