Did They Write About Jesus in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms?

Hello Dawn,I've never heard this question before, but I love it and suspect there is a surprising answer although I am going to have to do some serious research in order to find it.For the sake of conversation, let me project that the references will have something to do with the anointing of kings, priests and prophets. It is my opinion that Jesus fully intended to sit on the throne of Israel. (working within the myth, of course)The holy scriptures do have a lot to say about the position of the anointed one (AKA the Christ) which term was applied, in the main, to Israeli priests and kings but also to at least one foreign king.Thus, when Jesus says that the scriptures refer to him, he is speaking in terms of his ultimate office, his royal person, not his homespun identity as the illegitimate son of a Nazarene carpenter.A little something to think about.dbThis message has been edited by doctrbill, 04-16-2005 11:03 PM

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
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OOPS! I'm afraid you have skipped a step.Translators of the Septuagint did not bring Hebrew into English.They did bring Hebrew into Greek, however, but unfortunately for the apostles who couldn't read Hebrew: the Greeks had only the one word - parthenos. Modern New Testaments, in the interest of clarity, render parthenos as girl, young woman, bridesmaid and daughter. (In addition to the traditional "virgin" of course.)The word virginis was given for parthenos when the Septuagint was translated into Latin. Now, in Latin, as in Greek, there are a number of ways to understand the word "virgin." (Notice that the word is actually Latin, not English, so we have to pay attention to how the Latin people used it, Yes?)According to my Latin/English dictionary, virgin may be understood as: maiden, girl, young woman, or Young Married Woman.My Thorndike Barnhart says of virgin: Some of the apostles could not read the language of the Hebrews (which has a special word for girls who haven't had sexual intercourse) but they could read the language of the Greeks (which doesn't comment on your sexual experience). Just because the matter is open to interpretation (when we read it in Greek) doesn't give us (or Matthew, or Luke) a license to ignore the holy scripture from which the missinterpretation is drawn. That holy scripture was written in Hebrew, and in Hebrew there need be no ambiguity. In fact, there is some evidence that girls were called bethulah out of politeness, just to give them the honor, or the benefit of the doubt.Maybe Matthew couldn't read Isaiah in the original language but we can. We'll have to forgive him his ignorance (or not) but we have no excuse for getting it wrong. The idea of pregnancy without sex was foreign to Judaism but not to the heathen religions which surrounded Israel. The idea is also contrary to science, and to experience, and to history. To say that Jesus was born of a virgin simply means that his mother was young, or unmarried, or both.Besides, every young woman is a virgin the first time.db

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
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Translators of the Septuagint didn't make Almah mean Virgin.Translators of the Septuagint made Almah mean Parthenos; and Parthenos, like Virgin, may be taken several ways. Simply NOT true. Bethulah It is a legal term which is clearly defined in the scripture, three times. Perhaps you can point out where it is ambiguous. Can you give an example? It is not slander unless it is untrue. I asserted that these boys misinterpreted Isaiah and I can make a case to that effect.From the sources you cite:

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One cannot assert that the prophet was speaking of a virgin technically on the basis of the word almah.

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If this instance does not "strictly" mean 'virgin,' then which does?

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... every place in the N.T. where the word parthenos is used it is strictly translated virgin.

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Poppycock!The Catholic Church, of all Christian organizations, should be most concerned about maintaining the doctrine of virginity, yet they follow Protestants in translating parthenos realistically.In modern versions of the New Testament (Protestant and Catholic alike) parthenos is rendered in the following ways:Matthew 25:1 "bridesmaids."
Matthew 25:7 "maidens."
Matthew 25:11 "girls."
Luke 2:36 "girlhood," "first married."
Acts 21:9 "unmarried."
1 Corinthians 7:25 "unmarried."
1 Corinthians 7:28 "girl."
1 Corinthians 7:36 "betrothed"
1 Corinthians 7:37 "betrothed."That leaves only four verses where parthenos is rendered "virgin" or "virginity" by everyone. Only four of fourteen.
i.e. Most of the time, parthenos does NOT mean 'virgin.'Now, in the Old Testament: almah is also treated differently by modern versions. One may sometimes tell by the context that 'virgin' might be a misleading term to use for it; as at Song 6:8. In this song, the king is comparing the object of his desire with the many other women available to him.

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"There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number."

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The Modern Language Bible (Berkeley Version) gives this as:

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"Sixty queens there are and eighty concubines, and harem daughters beyond number."

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The Hebrew says almah here, and the Septuagint does not use the term parthenos. But, most translations render it 'virgin' anyway; even though the context might give one pause to reconsider (which Dr. Verkuyl apparently did). Yes, it is about the god/man.
Yes, it is about the son of Jehovah.But: It's not about asexual reproduction.
And, It's not about replacing Jehovah.Why do you suppose the Hebrew scholars of Jesus day rejected the Christian interpretation of the Scripture?
Christianity combines Judaism with heathen ideas, thus polluting it.
That's why Judaism rejected Christianity. What? Now rabbi's led the Christian movement? I cannot deny that there may have been a post modernist rabbi somewhere in the woodpile but it's a far cry to suggest that the leader of Judaic thought were responsible for the movement which they tried to snuff.The doctrine of the 'Virgin Birth' is contrary to, and cannot be supported from, the Hebrew scripture.db

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
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I don't believe I have overlooked anything significant.I am sorry you have nothing to say in response.dbThis message has been edited by doctrbill, 04-28-2005 04:30 PM

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
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Re: Message 215 You have been shown that this is not true. But, let's try again:Here, St. Paul discusses wives and virgins, i.e. married women and unmarried women. The context defines the meaning of 'virgin.' Here's another: Now, let's look at this in another version (you're not a KJV Onlyist are you?): And another. 1Corinthians 7:28: There are more examples. Seek and ye shall find. I did this research at the Blue Letter Bible site, to which you often refer. It is very useful.Remember, In English, the word 'virgin' may be taken at least two ways: Even more persuasive, however, is Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. Note what he gives as the FIRST definition:a virgin This I discovered when I followed the link you provided.***************************************************************Re: Message 218 At least three times in scripture, bethulah appears with its definition (never been laid). Alamah is never defined this way. Another Hebrew word for girl - naarah - 'damsel' appears several times with the word bethulah to indicate that the damsel in question has never been laid. Alamah is never associated with bethulah this way.If any scripture should have included bethulah AND its definition, it wouild be Isaiah 7:14. If any word for girl should have been associated with bethulah, then it should have been Almah at Isaiah 7:14. But none of this is so. And thus, Isaiah 7:14 fails the 'viriginity' test on several counts.Now ...The most famous "PARTHENOS," was Athena Parthenos, AKA - "Athena the Virgin" or "Athena the Young Woman." It is she for whom The Parthenon is named. She was a goddess who never married. She did, however, take lovers. Yes, she had sex with other gods and still retained her title, "The Virgin," because: Parthenos did not mean: never had sex. We might wish to assume that a young, unmarried woman has never had sex. It would be the polite thing to do. But we cannot be sure, can we? At any rate her age, weight, and sexual experience are probably removed extraneous asterisks to fix page width - The QueenThis message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 04-29-2005 04:15 PM

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
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You can't have it both ways.You cannot, on the one hand, have parthenos be "ambiguous" and "used in other contexts"
AND, on the other hand, have it "strictly" meaning "literal virgin."Every language has an unequivocal expression indicating what you call "a literal virgin." But 'Almah,' 'Parthenos,' and 'Virgin' are not those terms. They are not unequivocal. I believe you have already agreed to that.Any discussion of the sexual status of the mother of God should be unequivocal. It should be clearer, more precise, and more to the point than that of anyone else, including: Rachel, or Dinah, or Rahab.BUT it is NOT.It is so obscure, so ambivalent, so dichotomous as to inspire two millenia of fierce debate leading to the rape, pillage and plunder of ones opponents.Good Grief!Where is the referee already?

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
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That's what many Jewish scholars said of the Septuagint when it was a modern translation.That, and they saw how it was misleading the masses.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

db

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

Ramossmessage 231 Arachnophiliamessage 237 Sorry buddy, but I am happy to report that Ramoss is correct.The following happened AFTER the local prince took Dinah, "and lay with her, and humbled her." (verse 2)

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"And he was attached to the soul of Dina the daughter of Jacob, and he loved the damsel, and spoke kindly to the damsel." Genesis 23:3

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Where damsel is given for ... you guessed it ... Kai prosesxe th yuxh Deinav thv qugatrov Iakob kai hgaphse thn parqenon kai thn dianoian thv parqenou auth. Source: The Septuagint With Apocrypha: Greek and English by Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton. Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Originally published by Samuel Bagster & Sons, London, 1851. LCCCN: 70-106440l; ISBN 0-310-20430-5.Perhaps you were thrown off the scent by the changing noun case? Automated searches can do that to a guy.The stem of the word is parqen- with various suffixes to fit various 'cases.'Happy hunting.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
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1. - If it means women in general then it cannot mean pre-sexual women in specific.2. - There is nothing about the context of Isaiah 7 which requires a pre-sexual woman. So far, the ONLY unequivocal word we have looked at is bethulah.'Virgin' is NOT unequivocal. It has at least two definitions in English and even more in Latin."Literal virginity" is a cute but homegrown expression which depends on the definition of Virginity and is therefore is NOT unquivocal.Parthenos is NOT unequivocal, for it can (as you point out), mean a variety of things.Bethulah IS unequivocal, for it has ONLY ONE DEFINITION.And that's what unequivocal means.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

Ah yes. It's a wonderful life - atheism. On the other hand, someone has to come down here and bait these little buggers. I find it a stimulating 'spiritual' exercise. The spirit of revenge - for all the lies and repression I endured as a "good" Christian. I so enjoy battling the evil empire of Jesus and his minions. It is a great catharsis.I don't really hate the little droids. I just hate what they stand for. I was once one of them, so I have to back off a bit when I smell their blood. I would so enjoy the kill but I know I'd regret it soon afterward.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
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Good argument but IMO: Before we leave this I'd like to share what the notably conservative Dr. Strong has to say about "parthenos."

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a maiden; by implication an unmarried daughter; Word #3933 Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible

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And that's it. No equivocation. No doctrinal argument. Just good-old-fashioned scholarship. Gotta love it!This entire discussion has pointed up the truth written by the grandson of Jesus Ben Sirach, who said:

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"... the fact is that you cannot find an equivalent for things originally written in Hebrew when you come to translate them into another language; ..." From the translator's forward to Ecclesiasticus, 132 BC

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And this more recent comment:

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"Almah doesn't have a simple Greek equivilant." Virgin Birth

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I must agree, of course.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

To Ramoss: To Purple Dawn:db

It has been shown here, more than once, that the words almah, parthenos, and virgin, are ambivalent at best. ONLY bethulah has shown itself to be unequivocal.You have also been shown that the implication of parthenos is: "an unmarried daughter" STRONG'S CONCORDANCE First parthenos can be translated other ways, then it is "consistently" translated as virgin? Do you really know what you want to say? You are hung up on these two words as if they were equivalent, but they are not. The meanings they have chosen are the primary meanings. Only bethulah directly reveals one's sexual experience (or lack of it). You simply cannot lay the modern connotation of 'virgin' on the ancient text and expect to come out with the truth. The authority of which you speak is Christian, primarily Roman Catholic. Jewish authority never acknowledged the 'virgin birth.' Saint John never acknowledged the 'virgin birth.' Saint Paul never acknowledged the 'virgin birth.' in fact, Paul asserted that Jesus was born the naturall way "according to the flesh." But then, John and Paul could read Isaiah in the Hebrew, while Matthew and Luke, apparently could not.The 'virgin birth' doctrine turns on the definition of a single word. And that word does NOT mean what you want it to mean. There is no other, scholarly, reason to believe. db

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

You can't be serious.Has someone else gotten hold of your computer?