An atheist who is not so keen on God

This is from Jar's thread that I was dragging off topic.Essentially, Christians think that by loving others you love God.I disagree, and believe that we can help others and not love God.Brian.

Sorry about that Jar, I should have taken a few moments to compose a better OP.Anyway, the background is this.Jar’s opinion is that all anyone needs to do to be saved is to follow two commandments, namely, to love God, and to love others as you love yourself.Jar’s opinion is that when an atheist helps out a fellow human being he is showing love for God at the same time. This is basically the sheep and goats scenario, where Jesus says that when you help someone you are helping Jesus.As an atheist, I find it difficult to agree with Jar, I do understand completely what he is saying, I just don’t agree with it. This is not to say that Jar is wrong, he may well be correct, but at the moment I feel there are certain difficulties in accepting these two conditions.For example, Jar cites Matthew’s sheep and goats story to support his stance, which, on the surface, makes sense. However, I believe that Jesus was talking here about people who said they believed in God yet did not help others. I have seen this story used by various ministers and teachers to illustrate that anyone can say that they are a Christian, but to truly be a Christian you have to actually help others. They then go on to say that when you truly love God then the helping others falls naturally into place.This is what I believe the sheep and the goats story is about. I do not think Jesus was talking about everyone, I believe that he was just speaking about people who professed to love God and yet did not act on it.I also think that God wants you to show love for Him, and to do so you would have to believe in your heart that you show love for Him through loving others.A big problem I have with this two commandment salvic path is that by using Jar’s definition you do not actually have a two commandment salvic path. By linking one to the other in this way, there is no need to have the first commandment. If you follow the second commandment, to love others as you love yourself, and by doing so you automatically love God, then the first commandment is redundant.Jesus didn’t say that you are only required to love others and that love for God is displayed at the same time. He specifically says love God AND love others as you love yourself. I agree that Jar’s description, if true, would fulfil these two criteria. I believe that you have to be conscious about loving God in order to truly show love for God, and an atheist cannot do this.If Jar’s belief (and others here of course have said the same) is accurate, then Jesus would have had no need to say that you had to love God AND others, if the two were intertwined then loving others would suffice.I would say then that the main argument of the topic would be, is it possible for an atheist to love others without loving God?My answer is yes! Brian.edit coz i wasnt thinkin!This message has been edited by Brian, 02-20-2005 12:17 AM

Told you I wasn't thinking! LOLEdited now, cheers.Brian.

Because the believer is knowlingly expressing his love for God and heliping others. They are outwardly demonstrating that they are following both commandments. The atheist believes in their heart that they are simply helping someone in need.We can turn this around again and ask why should someone who professes love for Christ and helps others have the same reward as someone who only helps others. Surely to be a Christian you have to believe in your heart that there is a God and Christ died on the cross?I do like your particular Christian faith, I actually prefer it to any other one, but I have difficulty in justifying it from a biblical perspective.Maybe there is too much baggage on my part from my days of believing that is we didn't have believe in the resurrection then our faith was pointless.Maybe I think that there is much more to Christianity than these two commandments.Anyway, thanks for the replies.Brian.

Hi, Possibly, for someone who believes in God as God features in so many of the other things, resurrection, miracles, forgiveness of sin, etc. Yes, I understand that. Here here. I can confess that there are many Christians who keep me from considering the faith again. If all Christians were are patient and thoughtful as you, then perhaps my opinion might change.Cheers.Brian.

Sure.

Yep.

No, I don't think he would The God you describe wouldn't, no.Brian.

This particular GOD would say so.

Well, I hope your right, you deserve to be.Oh, and I haven't read the Narnia books, but I do have 1500 posts!!!!!!!Cheers.brian.

I promise I will.Thanks for giving up a lot of your Sunday, I appreciate it.Brian.

Hi phat,I keep missing messages from you because they are mixed in with others LOL.Anyway: God is ineffable I don't have issues with God, I have issues with people who think they have to tell others how to live their lives based on what they think a fantasy being said. I have issues with people who blatantly argue against the biblical text. I have issues with people who say it is just to wipe out every man, woman, and child in Jericho because God said to do it, then say something such as a hindu woman killing herself when her husband dies is barbaric, I have issues with double standards. He is a fictional character in a collection of ancient texts. Yes indeed, fro around 20 years He did. I am saying that I cannot love God because I am an atheist and dont believe in him, so it isn't possible in my opinion.Let be be straight here, I do not hate God or anyone or anything else (well maybe spiders), I don't think about God as a possible reality at all, I only think of Him as a character in a book. I am cheerful most of the time,i did lose it a couple of weeks ago, but apart from that. You should take my digs at God with a pinch of salt, it is just a device. It can be if I let it run away with me. Not at all, I have always got along very well with them all.You see, when I am in seminars I am a different person altogether from the one in here. I take it very seriosly and act as professionally as possible. At the end of each course all the students have to fill out an evaluation of the seminars and the percentage of students wo gave me full marks in each category is in the high 90's.I am totally objective in seminars, I wouldn't let my personal belief interfere with my work, and I really don't think that any of my students know that I am an atheist, I am sure some would be very surprised to find out.But I am doing a job, I am interested in learning more about the Hebrew Bible and seminars always bring up new information. The trainee ministers are especially inquisitive and we have had some excellent seminars, some have even mentioned my seminars to the head of dept as being something they really enjoyed about uni.I am extremely pleased to be involved in these seminars, it's not just any old uni you know. You probably don't know the half of it, he is one of life's true gentlemen.Brian.

I have to say that my chat with Jar was more along the lines of a casual conversation rather than a deep theological discussion.It was agreed that I would go along with Jar's premises so that *I* could understand where he was coming from. That was the purpose of the chat, whether anyone else agrees that Jar's stance is completely in accord with the Bible is immaterial. Our chat served its purpose, which was to enlighten me as to how Jar believed an atheist could love God.It is what he believes, it doesnt mean anyone has to agree with him. I personally find it difficult to harmonise when the rest of the Bible is considered, but he is happy in his faith. Good luck to him.Brian.

I am very familiar with Pascal's wager, and, like everyone else who is familiar with it, I see the huge errors that Pascal made.Brian.