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Author
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Topic: An atheist who is not so keen on God
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 6 of 100 (186956)
02-20-2005 12:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 3 by Brian
02-20-2005 7:29 AM
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Re: Sorry, I wasn't thinking
I would say then that the main argument of the topic would be, is it possible for an atheist to love others without loving God? My answer is no. Thank you. I rest my case. 
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 3 by Brian, posted 02-20-2005 7:29 AM | | Brian has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 7 by Brian, posted 02-20-2005 12:18 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 8 of 100 (186963)
02-20-2005 12:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 7 by Brian
02-20-2005 12:18 PM
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Typical Atheist-Evo Tactic
Let a poor Christian win one point and you move the goalposts or change the game.  But let me ask you some questions anyway. While I do use Matthew 25 as one source, I have also used the quotes from John and other places. I also have tried to point to what I believe are reasonable and logical reasons that love of GOD is not predicated on professing of GOD. Let me try to address a few things you said in your amendment to the OP.
For example, Jar cites Matthew’s sheep and goats story to support his stance, which, on the surface, makes sense. However, I believe that Jesus was talking here about people who said they believed in God yet did not help others. I have seen this story used by various ministers and teachers to illustrate that anyone can say that they are a Christian, but to truly be a Christian you have to actually help others. They then go on to say that when you truly love God then the helping others falls naturally into place. This is what I believe the sheep and the goats story is about. I do not think Jesus was talking about everyone, I believe that he was just speaking about people who professed to love God and yet did not act on it. I have said before but will repeat it here, that there are two facets I find important in the Sheep v Goats discussion. First, I agree that it was most definitely addressed to a group of believers. Both the sheep and the goats were close followers of Jesus, they were disciples if not even Apostles. He is telling them in no uncertain terms that simply professing belief ain't gonna cut it. But the second point is that it gives NO weight, NO credit, to profession at all. Professing a belief in GOD does not even get you partial credit on the test. It says quite clearly that you will be known by what you do. If doing good things, even small little insignificant things count as expressing love, if doing for the least of them is the same as doing it directly for jesus, then would that not be true across the board? Why would the acts of kindness and just consideration of a professing believer be counted more worthy than the same acts when performed by an atheist?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by Brian, posted 02-20-2005 12:18 PM | | Brian has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 11 of 100 (186996)
02-20-2005 2:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 10 by Brian
02-20-2005 2:00 PM
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Re: Typical Atheist-Evo Tactic
Let me address a couple points you bring up because I believe they are very, very important. You say...
Because the believer is knowlingly expressing his love for God and heliping others. They are outwardly demonstrating that they are following both commandments. The atheist believes in their heart that they are simply helping someone in need. I think that one of the things so often overlooked in the teachings of Christianity is that the purpose of an action is as important as the action istself. If I help someone because it is expressing my love for GOD, then IMHO it defeats the value of the act. I believe that Jesus message is what you express in your third sentence. Jesus wants us to help because that's the right thing to do. I believe a Christian should believe just as you express. You go on to ask...
We can turn this around again and ask why should someone who professes love for Christ and helps others have the same reward as someone who only helps others. If the act is part of the profession, then I doubt that they will. I think that too is part of the message. But then you jump to...
Surely to be a Christian you have to believe in your heart that there is a God and Christ died on the cross? That is another story but the short answer is yes. By definition a Christian has to believe in their heart that there is a God and Christ died on the cross. But that is only applicable to whether or not you are a Christian. Christianity is a religion, it is not GOD.
Maybe there is too much baggage on my part from my days of believing that is we didn't have believe in the resurrection then our faith was pointless. Maybe. I am not trying to convert anyone, simply point out how I see the issue. I do believe strongly that the greatest threat to Christianity is Christians.
Maybe I think that there is much more to Christianity than these two commandments. Possibly. But if those two basic Commandments were followed, would the rest fall in line?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by Brian, posted 02-20-2005 2:00 PM | | Brian has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 12 by Brian, posted 02-20-2005 2:29 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 13 of 100 (187007)
02-20-2005 2:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 12 by Brian
02-20-2005 2:29 PM
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So let me ask a stupid question
Possibly, for someone who believes in God as God features in so many of the other things, resurrection, miracles, forgiveness of sin, etc. Let us assume for a second that you live your life as I say a Christian should and as you say an Atheist should. Can we accept that as a given for the next few steps in this discussion?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by Brian, posted 02-20-2005 2:29 PM | | Brian has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 14 by Brian, posted 02-20-2005 2:49 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 15 of 100 (187011)
02-20-2005 2:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 14 by Brian
02-20-2005 2:49 PM
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Re: So let me ask a stupid question
Do you also agree that the Scientific Method, of weighing evidence and accepting the results of the evidence is a good test of reality?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 14 by Brian, posted 02-20-2005 2:49 PM | | Brian has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 16 by Brian, posted 02-20-2005 2:53 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 17 of 100 (187014)
02-20-2005 3:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 16 by Brian
02-20-2005 2:53 PM
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Re: So let me ask a stupid question
Okay, summary of agreement to this point. We agree that helping others is a good way to live. We agree that the scientific method is a good test of reality. Now we begin to speculate a little. Assume for a moment that I am right and when someone dies they actually come face to face with GOD. Secondly, please assume for a second that this GOD really is the one that intuitively understands the relationship between gravity and the other forces, that imagined this universe into existence, that created Evolution as a way for life to be self healing. This really is GOD. Further, let's imagine for a second that this GOD is as I believe, one that is consistent and not simply arbitrary, one who is honest and not Loki. The person who died was an Atheist who did not believe in GOD, but did try to live by helping others and does accept the Scientific Method. He is now faced with rather conclusive evidence that GOD does exist. Will he abandon the Scientific Method and hold on to his non-belief in the face of irrefutable evidence? Would the GOD I describe damn someone who acted appropriately and simply denied GOD's existence?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by Brian, posted 02-20-2005 2:53 PM | | Brian has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 19 of 100 (187019)
02-20-2005 3:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 18 by Brian
02-20-2005 3:17 PM
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Summary and review.
Okay. Let's go back to the original post and the addendum. You said...
As an atheist, I find it difficult to agree with Jar, I do understand completely what he is saying, I just don’t agree with it. This is not to say that Jar is wrong, he may well be correct, but at the moment I feel there are certain difficulties in accepting these two conditions. Remember, I am not asking you to believe in GOD, only trying to address whether or not it is possible for an Atheist to love GOD without professing or acknowledging a love of GOD. Would GOD say that the Aethist who spent his whole life denying GOD's existence had in reality been loving GOD through his actions? By the way, have you read the Narnia books?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by Brian, posted 02-20-2005 3:17 PM | | Brian has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 20 by Brian, posted 02-20-2005 3:38 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 21 of 100 (187029)
02-20-2005 3:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 20 by Brian
02-20-2005 3:38 PM
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Re: Summary and review.
This particular GOD would say so. Great, because I'm pretty sure that's HIM. In fact I'm counting on it.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by Brian, posted 02-20-2005 3:38 PM | | Brian has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 22 by Brian, posted 02-20-2005 3:50 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 23 of 100 (187032)
02-20-2005 3:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 22 by Brian
02-20-2005 3:50 PM
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Re: Summary and review.
If you get a chance, please read them. They are short and entertaining. In particular, the issue we have been discussing is brought up in the final book, The Last Battle. It will at the least show that I am not the only one holding such a position.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by Brian, posted 02-20-2005 3:50 PM | | Brian has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 24 by Brian, posted 02-20-2005 3:55 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 25 of 100 (187034)
02-20-2005 4:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 24 by Brian
02-20-2005 3:55 PM
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Re: Summary and review.
What could be a more appropriate way to spend Sunday than talking about GOD. I thank you for granting me an opportunity and platform to speak about a dear friend. And please let me know what you think of the Narnia Series once you've read them. Sincerely, I hope for everyone's sake I am right in my beliefs.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 24 by Brian, posted 02-20-2005 3:55 PM | | Brian has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 28 of 100 (187076)
02-20-2005 8:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 26 by Rrhain
02-20-2005 8:10 PM
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Re: Typical Atheist-Evo Tactic
The problem is that this presupposes the divinity of Jesus and thus is a circular argument. It equates "love" with "Jesus" and "god" and thus anything that anybody anywhere does is for Jesus and god if it is done with love. Well, I am a Christian and I do presuppose the divinity of Jesus. LOL.
You need to prove that things done out of love are necessarily done for Jesus even if the person doing it doesn't know it. I don't think so. What I believe I need to show is that GOD wants folk to help others, to do the right thing. If that's what GOD wants then whether the person is doing it for GOD or just because it's the right thing to do, it works.
Is there nothing that is distinct and separate from god? Asking me, as a Christian? No, of course not.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 26 by Rrhain, posted 02-20-2005 8:10 PM | | Rrhain has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 29 by Rrhain, posted 02-20-2005 8:42 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 30 of 100 (187083)
02-20-2005 8:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 29 by Rrhain
02-20-2005 8:42 PM
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Re: Typical Atheist-Evo Tactic
Okay. LOL
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 29 by Rrhain, posted 02-20-2005 8:42 PM | | Rrhain has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 31 by Rrhain, posted 02-20-2005 9:07 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 32 of 100 (187089)
02-20-2005 9:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 31 by Rrhain
02-20-2005 9:07 PM
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Re: Typical Theist-Creo Bull
Okay. LOL
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 31 by Rrhain, posted 02-20-2005 9:07 PM | | Rrhain has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 33 by Rrhain, posted 02-20-2005 9:23 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 34 of 100 (187093)
02-20-2005 9:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 33 by Rrhain
02-20-2005 9:23 PM
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Re: No response?
I didn't ask those questions for my health, jar. I really want to know: Okay. LOL
Why do you think I'm an atheist? I don't. It's pretty obvious that you're a mindreader. LOL.
Why did you equate evolution and atheism? Because beer often comes in brown bottles. Are you having reading problems tonight? Can I get you to go back and reread the thread?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 33 by Rrhain, posted 02-20-2005 9:23 PM | | Rrhain has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 35 by Rrhain, posted 02-20-2005 9:39 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 36 of 100 (187098)
02-20-2005 9:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 35 by Rrhain
02-20-2005 9:39 PM
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Re: No response?
I'm sorry Rrhain but absolutely nothing in any of your posts has anything to do with anything I said. I have absolutely no idea where you got any of the things you've posted.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 35 by Rrhain, posted 02-20-2005 9:39 PM | | Rrhain has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 37 by Rrhain, posted 02-20-2005 10:18 PM | | jar has replied |
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