An atheist who is not so keen on God

This is from Jar's thread that I was dragging off topic.Essentially, Christians think that by loving others you love God.I disagree, and believe that we can help others and not love God.Brian.

Brian. For those that haven't been following the conversation, can you flesh out the positions as YOU see them a little more?AbE:Can you expand on what you posted in Message 270.This message has been edited by AdminJar, 02-19-2005 19:15 AM

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Sorry about that Jar, I should have taken a few moments to compose a better OP.Anyway, the background is this.Jar’s opinion is that all anyone needs to do to be saved is to follow two commandments, namely, to love God, and to love others as you love yourself.Jar’s opinion is that when an atheist helps out a fellow human being he is showing love for God at the same time. This is basically the sheep and goats scenario, where Jesus says that when you help someone you are helping Jesus.As an atheist, I find it difficult to agree with Jar, I do understand completely what he is saying, I just don’t agree with it. This is not to say that Jar is wrong, he may well be correct, but at the moment I feel there are certain difficulties in accepting these two conditions.For example, Jar cites Matthew’s sheep and goats story to support his stance, which, on the surface, makes sense. However, I believe that Jesus was talking here about people who said they believed in God yet did not help others. I have seen this story used by various ministers and teachers to illustrate that anyone can say that they are a Christian, but to truly be a Christian you have to actually help others. They then go on to say that when you truly love God then the helping others falls naturally into place.This is what I believe the sheep and the goats story is about. I do not think Jesus was talking about everyone, I believe that he was just speaking about people who professed to love God and yet did not act on it.I also think that God wants you to show love for Him, and to do so you would have to believe in your heart that you show love for Him through loving others.A big problem I have with this two commandment salvic path is that by using Jar’s definition you do not actually have a two commandment salvic path. By linking one to the other in this way, there is no need to have the first commandment. If you follow the second commandment, to love others as you love yourself, and by doing so you automatically love God, then the first commandment is redundant.Jesus didn’t say that you are only required to love others and that love for God is displayed at the same time. He specifically says love God AND love others as you love yourself. I agree that Jar’s description, if true, would fulfil these two criteria. I believe that you have to be conscious about loving God in order to truly show love for God, and an atheist cannot do this.If Jar’s belief (and others here of course have said the same) is accurate, then Jesus would have had no need to say that you had to love God AND others, if the two were intertwined then loving others would suffice.I would say then that the main argument of the topic would be, is it possible for an atheist to love others without loving God?My answer is yes! Brian.edit coz i wasnt thinkin!This message has been edited by Brian, 02-20-2005 12:17 AM

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

I feel that it is possible to help others without the belief that God exists. I am an atheist, and I've volunteered at the local hospital and museum of natural history, and I see no reason why this would indicate anything about my beliefs. I think that I am a somewhat selfless person - while I do care about my wellbeing, I care about others as well and am more than willing to help any who ask. For example, if a neighbor is moving in or out, I offer my assistance carrying their things, even if I don't know them very well. Being that I live in an apartment in a college town, people move all the time. Just yesterday, I helped someone remove spyware from their computer. There are a million little things like that I do for others, even though they offer little benefit to me. I just enjoy helping others out.A roommate I had my freshman year was majoring in Philosophy. One day he told me about a subject discussed in one of his classes. He was asked the question "Can any act be altruistic?". He said that no act can truly be altruistic because you can think of a benefit to any given situation. While I suppose you can probably assign benefits to any act, I still feel that if you don't think about or consider those consequences while performing the act in question, the act is still altruistic.

Thank you. I rest my case.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Told you I wasn't thinking! LOLEdited now, cheers.Brian.

Let a poor Christian win one point and you move the goalposts or change the game. But let me ask you some questions anyway.While I do use Matthew 25 as one source, I have also used the quotes from John and other places. I also have tried to point to what I believe are reasonable and logical reasons that love of GOD is not predicated on professing of GOD.Let me try to address a few things you said in your amendment to the OP. I have said before but will repeat it here, that there are two facets I find important in the Sheep v Goats discussion. First, I agree that it was most definitely addressed to a group of believers. Both the sheep and the goats were close followers of Jesus, they were disciples if not even Apostles. He is telling them in no uncertain terms that simply professing belief ain't gonna cut it.But the second point is that it gives NO weight, NO credit, to profession at all. Professing a belief in GOD does not even get you partial credit on the test. It says quite clearly that you will be known by what you do.If doing good things, even small little insignificant things count as expressing love, if doing for the least of them is the same as doing it directly for jesus, then would that not be true across the board?Why would the acts of kindness and just consideration of a professing believer be counted more worthy than the same acts when performed by an atheist?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'd have to say no, as we're talking about the release of neurochemicals in response to stimuli. Many atheists have a stimulus -- one or more concepts of 'God' -- but it releases nothing; hence, no emotional response.
You can't say they love this imaginary person if they have no emotional reaction to it.As for helping others, that's, at least in part, internalized reinforcement.
You help someone, then you give yourself a shot of endorphins. This reinforces the behavior.
Don't much see 'love for God' in there.There's also gotta be something governing grouping behavior; ie, who you see as a part of your group, and therefore feel close to (love for). (Oxytocin?) But if God isn't a part of your group, there's no love there.This message has been edited by DominionSeraph, 02-20-2005 13:31 AM

Because the believer is knowlingly expressing his love for God and heliping others. They are outwardly demonstrating that they are following both commandments. The atheist believes in their heart that they are simply helping someone in need.We can turn this around again and ask why should someone who professes love for Christ and helps others have the same reward as someone who only helps others. Surely to be a Christian you have to believe in your heart that there is a God and Christ died on the cross?I do like your particular Christian faith, I actually prefer it to any other one, but I have difficulty in justifying it from a biblical perspective.Maybe there is too much baggage on my part from my days of believing that is we didn't have believe in the resurrection then our faith was pointless.Maybe I think that there is much more to Christianity than these two commandments.Anyway, thanks for the replies.Brian.

Let me address a couple points you bring up because I believe they are very, very important. You say... I think that one of the things so often overlooked in the teachings of Christianity is that the purpose of an action is as important as the action istself. If I help someone because it is expressing my love for GOD, then IMHO it defeats the value of the act. I believe that Jesus message is what you express in your third sentence. Jesus wants us to help because that's the right thing to do. I believe a Christian should believe just as you express.You go on to ask... If the act is part of the profession, then I doubt that they will. I think that too is part of the message.But then you jump to... That is another story but the short answer is yes. By definition a Christian has to believe in their heart that there is a God and Christ died on the cross. But that is only applicable to whether or not you are a Christian. Christianity is a religion, it is not GOD. Maybe. I am not trying to convert anyone, simply point out how I see the issue. I do believe strongly that the greatest threat to Christianity is Christians. Possibly. But if those two basic Commandments were followed, would the rest fall in line?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Hi, Possibly, for someone who believes in God as God features in so many of the other things, resurrection, miracles, forgiveness of sin, etc. Yes, I understand that. Here here. I can confess that there are many Christians who keep me from considering the faith again. If all Christians were are patient and thoughtful as you, then perhaps my opinion might change.Cheers.Brian.

Let us assume for a second that you live your life as I say a Christian should and as you say an Atheist should. Can we accept that as a given for the next few steps in this discussion?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Sure.

Do you also agree that the Scientific Method, of weighing evidence and accepting the results of the evidence is a good test of reality?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion