Free will, perfection and limits on god

I think god wanted to make a being that could appreciate his love and love him back.Now, he could have made a perfect being that always loved him, but it kinda would have been like a robot, and not really love. If we love god by default then the value of that love is compromised. God wanted a being that could love him but did not have to love him. Not having to love him and then choosing to love him makes it kick-ass.

I don't like the idea of god punishing people. I think you punish yourself. Sinning is seperating yourself from god (not loving him) and I think this will hurt you in the end, post death. But I don't think god smites people who don't love because they don't love him. I dunno...I'm more into the New Testament. Those old jewish stories don't make much sence to me. I think it says that god was testing Job though, some sorta bet with the devil or something, I'm not even that familiar with the Old Testament. So, I'd have to say that he doesn't punish those who do. Nope.
I wasn't trying to imply that either.

If god proved to everyone that he existed then everyone would believe in him. This would make the belief in god worth less. Its like what I said earlier with love, if everyone loved god by default then that love would lose quality. Beilieving in god without proof (faith) is worth more to god than discovering him and then believing.Also, leaving us record that were designed to mislead us and finding examples of things that really are not as they seem is a lot different than leaving out information that proves his existance. The first two are lying, the third is not. no, we can't and prolly never will.

If I believed that I'd lose my respect for god.When I choose to sin its my choice not gods. If god predetermined everything I could run around sinning till my hearts content and just blame it all on god for predetermining it to happen that way.

What do you mean?

I don't know what God's will really means, if you could replace these words in the question I could answer it more comfortably. If you are asking if he created it the way he wanted to, then I would say yes. But if you are asking if as the universe passes through time, is god's will being gradually unfolded and therefore his will is continually being fulfilled and thus predetermination, then I would say no.

Then you know my answer is yes.

I'd say yes, but again its hard to answer comfortably without more context and without knowing where you are going with this. I don't think omniscience neccessarily includes foresight.Perhaps we could do this more than one question at a time.

I don't think that god's knowledge of something happening is the cause for that thing to happen. God and I know that if I drop a baseball it will fall to the ground but niether of our knowledge of this is the reason the ball falls (but a baseball doesn't have a choice, nor free will).I think it is possible for god to know what decision I am going to make, but that doesn't prevent me from actually making the decision, I still have the free will to choose which decision. I don't think god plays that active of a role to know every decision I'm going to make before I make it, although he is capable. For example, during my drive home tonight, am I going to change lanes 10 feet after mile marker 15 or will it be 20 feet, perhaps 30. Do you think god knows?I think god is capable of knowing the answer at any given point in time, but I don't think he does know because it is my choice. I'll decide when I get there and there are an infinite number of factors that could change when I switch lanes.

I agree that if god has knowledge of a decision that I'm going to make then the decision must be predetermined and I lose my free will. I believe that god doesn't know every decision I'm going to make and allows me to have free will, but if he wanted to know what I'm going to do then he could take away my free will and know my decision before I make it. For example, by making it impossible for me to make a decision other than the one he predetermined. I don't think god's knowledge is limited by anything.

I think god is omniscient and has the power to know the future if he choses to. I don't think god layed out a plan for all time. If this were true then we are all robots, just running the program that god wrote before we were even born. This view would cause me to lose respect for god. I don't think he created a bunch of robots where some are programmed to love him and some are programed to be evil. I think god gives us the choice to love him or to sin. Like I said earlier, if I believed it was all mapped out already I would just run around sinning all the time and then blame it on god for planning my life to be that way. When I sin, its my fault and I chose to sin.About the painting metaphor:I don't think god painted the unverse and then later pressed the start button, or said "Go!". I think god is painting the universe as time passes. Now if he wants to use his power to make sure the painting has certain details in the future, I think he is capable. But again, I don't think the painting is finished yet.

More than one person might have to lose their free will for something to happen that god specifically wants to happen. Which is another reason I think he would just stay out of it and let me make my own decisions rather than starting the complications.

I disagree. As I said earlier... A simply definition for omniscience is all-knowing. I don't think this includes the future. You can know everything without knowing the things that haven't happened yet. This is a difference of opinion, you think omniscience includes knowing everything that will happen and I don't, let's put this part behind us. Check Message 11Which is why I would lose respect for him. I don't believe that god wants me to sin. I think we chose to sin, we chose to seperate ourselves from god. I think god doesn't know whats going to happen in the future by default, but if he wanted to control a part of the future he could. no, I don't think they make conscious decisions.

I'll play your logic game. But everything doesn't include the future. Something that hasn't happened yet doesn't exist yet and isn't a thing yet so it shouldn't be incuded as a thing in the term everything. Omni- means all, -scient means knowledge. If I believe god is all knowing, or omniscient, I don't have to believe that he knows everything about the future, so, its not "almost-omniscient", it is just "omniscient". The past has happened and has existed and can be known. The future has not happened and has not existed and can not be known. They are only reletive to the present and time can only go forward. Something can not go from the past to the future it can only go from the future to the past. I don't understand your view of time. False.They are neither predetermined nor do they have free will. The animals are the 'robots' that I see your view makes humans into. Animals' program is to just react to a stimulus via instinct, the reason they aren't predetermined is that the stimuli are "random" and not a part of the program.

Thanks for replying. yeah, pretty much. Predetermined by instinct. I don't think you'll get the same response for the same input every time though. An unpleasant input repeated would yield a different response the second time. Though, you could say the input was 2 part and the program said X for part 1 and Y for part 2, or something like that. yeah, and there are so many variables.Is this the way you see things too? Do you think free will exists?