Original Sin

Arachnophilia Why is god exempt from the responsability issue?After all it was an obviously premeditated situation as this verse indicates. What purpose could the tree of the knowledge of good and evil serve in Eden?From this verse come questions.If Eve had no knowledge of good and evil before eating of the fruit then she is innocent of doing so.Now having eaten of the fruit why did she not realize that it would not be good to have Adam eat of the fruit?Did the fruit not give her knowledge of good in equal amounts as well?The serpent was created by god therefore the question comes forth how did the serpent acquire knowledge of good and evil? This situation is further complicated by the tree of life. Why is there a problem with the tree of life? There was no injuction against eating it so what was it doing in Eden? What if Adam or Eve had partaken of the tree of life since it was not denied them? This also raises the question of what was the point of threatening Adam and Eve with death since this must have been the case anyway? Why were they not informed of the existence of the tree of life?God and whoever us is also posses knowledge of good and evil.Why are they not aware that it is just as evil to set up the conditions to tempt innocents{Adam and Eve before eating of the fruit} into commiting evil{which they were only aware of after the fact} using entities of their own device{the serpent who must have gained the knowledge of good and evil from them} to persuade the innocents to partake in something they could not know the consequences of beforehand?

ramoss How could they be set up to know the difference between good and evil if,in order to do so,they need to disobey god? Whether it is original sin is not the point.You cannot inflict a punishment upon those who are innocent before commiting the crime that allows them to know that they are indeed doing so.It is also immoral on the part of god to set the conditions in place that would permit such actions to take place at all.

Phatboy That is untrue.God could just as easily given any amount of knowledge in any field to allow Adam and Eve to see the full extent of the consequences of actions they take and allow them to make an informed choice.And if that choice was not what god would have liked well that is to bad for him is it not? Why all the anger and rage? Is god not above the pettiness of human emotional venting? He has absolute power, can set up any situation he so chooses,but if his creation rebels against him then he can only direct that anger at himself.To do otherwise demonstrates a staggering lack of maturity and control.As for moral choice please inform me of what gods' source of morals amounts to? I have known children with greater sense of tolerance and caring. If we do not have any clear understanding then the meaning is pretty much up for interpretation and therefore one is as good as another.Why would the writers feel it necessary to be vague and confusing? It would be no problem to adjust the story to reflect one of any number of meanings and make it directly apparent just what is meant.Sorry but this is not a good arguement in my view. Threats do not amount to force in your view? It was also no choice since they {Adam and Eve}cannot have any understanding of the consequences.Remember they did not merely end up dying {spiritual or otherwise} None of this was made clear to them so this arguement also fades under review IMO LOL! How can you make a conscious decision of that which you are not{an unknown} conscious of? Eve and Adam could not have known good since the progression of the storyline specifically prohibits this.Adanm and Eve were innocent of the understanding of good and evil until after the eating of the fruit, whether literal or figurative. But with a creator that has no evidential reality and personal experience found to be capable of distortion for a thousand different reasons including grief, terror, lust,social need for acceptance etc.,I can find no basis IMO for making a commitment towards a belief despite such a scenario being emotionally satisfying.
I also do not think it is a this vs. that condition but,rather,a critical thinking objective look at the support for belief as removed from the emotional.In this way it is,IMO, the proper way to determine if such a belief is to amount to more than wishful thinking.After all iI would think that a REAL god would be as apparent as the earth we walk on and not be a doubtful fit of the imagination full of distortion and paranthesied by only faith. Not at all.We are not told if he rebelled at this point{Eden} If evil is created by god {in the creation} then was godwill somehow absent then? Rebellion is evil? Your nation was founded upon rebellion was it not?Just what do you mean by alternative reality?Are you shifting the goalposts? God created evil.He wields it and uses it many times in the bible.
Are you implying that I am evil because god has no place in my thoughts? That is ludicrous in the extreme sir.A person can be full of thought about god and be "evil" in action. I am not sure the direction you were going here.Could you elaborate?

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A centipede was happy quite, until a toad in fun
Said, "Pray, which leg comes after which?'
This raised his doubts to such a pitch
He fell distracted in the ditch
Not knowing how to run.

Phatboy Actually god is not in my mind in any way other than as a point of reference to your belief old man.I can assure you that I am not of reservation in holding no beief where entities such as this are concerned.I can understand the attraction of comfoting thought but magic and renditions of ancient scrolls do not a sound arguement make. Ah,but my dance needs no god,it is complete in and of itself.A brief chance for the wonders then a satisfying sleep.

Light. The point is the dance so no observers are not necessary though they no doubt do.
I suppose the interaction of so many possibilities or more accurately that out of all the staggeringly huge combinations that could occur this one did and I get to watch it unfold.I could fill days worth of typing and not even begin to scratch the wonders I have chanced upon, so it is difficult to do it justice.If you wish I could start an e mail correspondence to give some insight into this. My my. So many questions. I think it best if you clarify your inquiry so that I do not fly off on a dozen different tangents. The satisfaction is is that the sleep,this death that plagues men is literally nothing at all. No terrors,no cares no fears.Anyone can do it and it equalizes us all.We have built a society that eyes the clock as though a countdown to doom rather than a simple unwavering end to the individual.So much frenzy to accomplish and so little in paying attention to the subtle and pervasive beauty of it all.We will devote countless hours to chasing fantasies and numbing our minds with images on a box.Try taking just yourself into the deep forest with only nature for company and see how much your mind chatters and needs to fill the silence with noise.We are so wound up all the time with really silly concerns that do not even originate with us but are fed to us regularly.Like Thomas Carlyle wrote: "The tragedy of life is not what men suffer;but what they miss."Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.

robinrohanWhere in the bible do you find the verses dealing with the so called covenant of works?

robinrohanI must be getting old. Would this covenant have something to do with the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

robinrohanOk then in response to your previous statement here. How is it possible for a covenant dealing with consience be established before eating of the fruit since,after all,conscience is the knowledge of good and evil?

AbshalomThen the covenant did not exist plain and simple.

robinrohan Well #1 is out since it would not make sense to claim a consience since the bible does not make wiggle room for this and it would also mean they had an awareness of good and evil for which eating of the fruit of the tree would be a moot point.#2 would indicate good to be a quaity seperate from god which does not seem to square with what little I know of Christianity.

robinrohan No that would be god's concept.They cannot have a sense of good and evil. That is why the serpent said their eyes would be opened.They were blind in this matter. This weighs favorably with the notion of the genesis verses being merely a story and not an actual event that transpires.