EvC Forum: The lies behind the Miller experiment

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Topic: The lies behind the Miller experiment

jar

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Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 50 of 226 (156360)
11-05-2004 5:15 PM

Reply to: Message 49 by coffee_addict
11-05-2004 5:09 PM

Re: miller-urey experiment

He seems to be a good young kid from Colorado Springs Christian. That limits him somewhat but I have hope that he'll work through it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
	Message 49 by coffee_addict, posted 11-05-2004 5:09 PM		coffee_addict has not replied

jar

Member (Idle past 423 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 62 of 226 (157217)
11-08-2004 10:04 AM

Reply to: Message 58 by JESUS freak
11-08-2004 9:50 AM

Here's your problem

First, in your OP you said that the Miller experiment was used as evidence to support Evolution.

Many people here have pointed out to you that it has nothing to do with Evolution. Evolution deals with what happened after life formed, not with how life formed.

Second, you have claimed that the experiment failed and the reason you claim it failed was that a later experiment produced cyanid. Well, again, people have pointed out to you that there are critters that live in such an environment.

How life started is still very much an open question. But it is also one that will very likely be solved during your lifetime if not mine. The Miller experiment was from 50 years ago and much has happened since then.

In summary, the Miller experiment has nothing to do with Evolution or the Theory of Evolution. Even if it is totally wrong it has no effect on the TOE.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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	Message 58 by JESUS freak, posted 11-08-2004 9:50 AM		JESUS freak has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 66 by JESUS freak, posted 11-10-2004 2:00 PM		jar has replied

jar

Member (Idle past 423 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 74 of 226 (158123)
11-10-2004 4:39 PM

Reply to: Message 66 by JESUS freak
11-10-2004 2:00 PM

I don't doubt that it is mentioned as a problem in many schools

particularly those that teach a Creation based point of view. But so far you have not shown where it is taught as part of a study.

If it is being used, then the teacher simply does not understand the subject. It has nothing to do with evolution.

But let's go on to the next step.

You say that there were lies behind the experiment. Can you support that assertion?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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	Message 66 by JESUS freak, posted 11-10-2004 2:00 PM		JESUS freak has not replied

jar

Member (Idle past 423 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 127 of 226 (160991)
11-18-2004 10:21 AM

Reply to: Message 125 by JESUS freak
11-18-2004 9:49 AM

You still have not supported a lie. I don't believe it's a malicious act on your part, simply a lack of understanding and information.

First, would you agree that Miller and Urey were using what they believed, at the time, might have been a likely early atmosphere?

Second, you make many factualy errors in your summary. You say:

a) Miller used a hydrogen-rich atmosphere, meaning the atmosphere was mostly hydrogen. Scientists now believe that little or no hydrogen was present in earth’s early atmosphere. Who’s leaving out facts now?

No one is leaving out facts. The way science works, when new information is discovered it is incorporated into the body of knowledge.

However without oxygen, we would not have the atmosphere that we need. Without an atmosphere, no life could have lived, because not only would large meteorites always be striking the earth, but earth sans atmosphere could not have supported life because the UV rays from the sun would fry every living thing, if there was anything living, since no life yet existed.

You have two major logical and literal errors there. First, without oxygen animal life might not be possible as we know it, but much other life would thrive. Second, when you then make the leap to no atmosphere you completely lose the point. The atmosphere has nothing to do with oxygen at all. An atmosphere can be made up or an gas. If there were no oxygen our atmosphere would still be almost identical to whatit is today, and would provide exactly the same protection from meteorites ( it provides almost no protection from meteors) and perhaps even better UV protection.

a) Second, this is somewhat off topic, but even if the earth existed without oxygen back when life started, when and how did we get all of the oxygen and nitrogen that we have now? No other planets near us (or in our solar system for that matter) have nitrogen or oxygen to give us?

Like most of our atmosphere from chemical recycling of other materials.

3) Similar results is a lie, as I explained in the topic message.

Again, no, you have not explained how it is a lie.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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	Message 125 by JESUS freak, posted 11-18-2004 9:49 AM		JESUS freak has replied

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	Message 172 by JESUS freak, posted 11-22-2004 9:44 AM		jar has replied

jar

Member (Idle past 423 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 138 of 226 (161117)
11-18-2004 2:18 PM

Reply to: Message 134 by coffee_addict
11-18-2004 2:08 PM

Re: Fear of being caught in a lie.

What if JF is living in one of those small towns that were set up specifically for isolation from the outside world?

That's pretty much the case. JF is either a student or teacher at Colorado Springs Christian School which is a very large fundamentalist primary school with multiple campuses. As a student there he is operating at a severe disadvantage since a lot of material is denied him as a matter of policy.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
	Message 134 by coffee_addict, posted 11-18-2004 2:08 PM		coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 141 by coffee_addict, posted 11-18-2004 2:42 PM	jar has replied
	Message 145 by CK, posted 11-18-2004 3:00 PM	jar has replied
	Message 176 by JESUS freak, posted 11-22-2004 2:05 PM	jar has not replied

jar

Member (Idle past 423 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 144 of 226 (161156)
11-18-2004 2:59 PM

Reply to: Message 141 by coffee_addict
11-18-2004 2:42 PM

Re: Fear of being caught in a lie.

Now you know I can't tell you all my secrets, but you'd be amazed at what can be learned about someone these days.

AbE

Do you know anyone that posts from Illinois State University?

This message has been edited by jar, 11-18-2004 03:00 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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	Message 141 by coffee_addict, posted 11-18-2004 2:42 PM		coffee_addict has replied

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jar

Member (Idle past 423 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 146 of 226 (161162)
11-18-2004 3:12 PM

Reply to: Message 145 by CK
11-18-2004 3:00 PM

Re: Fear of being caught in a lie.

It is interesting because they do not post their curiculum. They do post their core beliefs though.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar

Member (Idle past 423 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 152 of 226 (161235)
11-18-2004 6:40 PM

Reply to: Message 151 by coffee_addict
11-18-2004 6:33 PM

Mea Culpa

Thank you. I apologize. I had not found that on their site. But it does make my point that JF is somewhat handicapped by limitations in the information available.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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	Message 151 by coffee_addict, posted 11-18-2004 6:33 PM		coffee_addict has not replied

jar

Member (Idle past 423 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 174 of 226 (162305)
11-22-2004 10:02 AM

Reply to: Message 172 by JESUS freak
11-22-2004 9:44 AM

The point is that they don't mention that the origional atmosphere was wrong in my text book.

But that really doesn't matter, does it.

First, it WAS what some thought the atmosphere might be like at the time the experiment was done. So even if it was incorrect, it was not dishonest. It was a valid, successful experiment.

Second, the beginnings of life are not part of the Theory of Evolution. The TOE simply is our best theory of what happened after life began and is continuing today. It too may well be wrong, that's the way science works. And if a better explaination comes along, that will not make the TOE a lie, simply wrong.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
	Message 172 by JESUS freak, posted 11-22-2004 9:44 AM		JESUS freak has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 175 by JESUS freak, posted 11-22-2004 1:54 PM		jar has replied

jar

Member (Idle past 423 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 177 of 226 (162371)
11-22-2004 2:08 PM

Reply to: Message 175 by JESUS freak
11-22-2004 1:54 PM

So what if it was thought to be the right atmosphere then? That was fine then, but now, even though we arn't sure exactly what earth's early atmosphere consisted of, we are almost positive that it was not at all like the miller-urey experiment

Let's look at what you've said. If the conditions that they used were correct, to the best of their knowledge at the time, then the experiment was a success and not a lie. Surely even you must admit that?

Secondly, the miller experiment does have a lot to do with evoloution. Without a life form to multiply get through many generations get better suited for for his enviroment, evoloution is impossible. Without divine intervention, 0 multiplied by 5 billion years still =0

Why? The Theory of Evolution says nothing and has nothing to do with how life started. Even if the first life was through divine intervention, the TOE is still the best explaination of what happened since then.

Also, you sem to still hold the notion that evolution has to do with things getting better. That's simply wrong. Things change. There is no purpose to the change, no direction, no better. If the random change happens to help the critters survive to reproduce, then it's successful. But it is not directed, not better or worse. It is the critter lives and has children or doesn't.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion