|
Author
|
Topic: The boasts of atheists (Atheist self-deception)
|
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
Message 10 of 304 (330068)
07-09-2006 11:20 AM
|
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
07-09-2006 12:44 AM
|
|
just will not do.
Yes, one can be happy and one can be moral, but one will also go to one's long home. said Cocky Robin to the white clad back sitting at the bench. "True," said Dr. Salk, "but let me finish this vaccine before I dodder off."
It will be, in a hundred years, as if you never existed. You are of no more significance than a roach crawling across the floor. "True," said Vincent, "but do you think a nice bouillabaisse would do for dinner?"
So one must understand that fact thoroughly before one speaks of "happiness" and "exemplary moral character" and the "wonder of life." "True," said the children, "and I wonder how high the sky really is?"
Except in a practical sense, it will not do to speak of such things as happiness and morality. "True," said the teacher, "so let us all be impractical instead." Edited by jar, : fix link
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 07-09-2006 12:44 AM | | robinrohan has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: Get a load of this
"Doesn't it make you want to puke?", said Cocky Robin. "Yeah," said Joe.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 13 by robinrohan, posted 07-09-2006 3:00 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 23 of 304 (330178)
07-09-2006 11:12 PM
|
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
07-09-2006 11:00 PM
|
|
Re: another way of pondering the question
All that has been said is that without God there are no ABSOLUTE or ULTIMATE or OBJECTIVE moral standards, but only ones we choose, subjective standards. And so far no one has shown that there are any ABSOLUTE or ULTIMATE or OBJECTIVE moral standards if there is a GOD, so what is the point? This thread like all the others robin has started seems to be a stream of unfounded assertions based on fallacious reasoning. It's a humorous escapade into the realm of nonsense and fantasy. None other than Robin said "Except in a practical sense, it will not do to speak of such things as happiness and morality." That pretty much sums up the options, the practical world of those he quotes compared to some impractical world of chimera he inhabits.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by Faith, posted 07-09-2006 11:00 PM | | Faith has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 26 of 304 (330182)
07-09-2006 11:17 PM
|
Reply to: Message 24 by berberry
07-09-2006 11:13 PM
|
|
on Morality
Sometimes there may be problems in determining whether a given act really is rape or murder, but if it is the moral rule applies with or without God's help. And there in lies the problem. Whether it is rape or murder will depend on the culture, the era and the ethics of the community.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 24 by berberry, posted 07-09-2006 11:13 PM | | berberry has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 27 by berberry, posted 07-09-2006 11:35 PM | | jar has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 29 of 304 (330190)
07-09-2006 11:48 PM
|
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
07-09-2006 11:37 PM
|
|
Re: another way of pondering the question
This is a complete misreading of what he is saying. How can I misread what he says when I quote his exact words? Did Robin not say, "Except in a practical sense, it will not do to speak of such things as happiness and morality." as posted in Message 1?
He has over and over said he personally inhabits that practical world in which in a practical sense one speaks of such things as happiness and morality, and this, he says, is because he doesn't believe in God, and this is all that anyone can do who doesn't believe in God, subjectively invent a practical kind of happiness and morality. Did he not go on to immediately follow that statement in Message 1 with:
RobinRohan writes: If one is an atheist one should never speak this way. One should say, "We are products of a mindless universe, accidentally produced. We will live out our lives, and have some pleasures, and grow old, and die." It sounds like he is saying quite the opposite of what you claim he is saying.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 28 by Faith, posted 07-09-2006 11:37 PM | | Faith has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 62 of 304 (330319)
07-10-2006 10:54 AM
|
Reply to: Message 30 by robinrohan
07-10-2006 12:02 AM
|
|
Re: another way of pondering the question
No. There is a difference between one's practical life and one's philosophical life. I would never speak of my nihilistic views to my peers. I could be fired for that. One must be very positive on one's job, of course. But here I feel I can be honest. Either you are saying that the others are not being honest or you are saying you find their simple statements to be so beyond what you consider possible for you to accomplish as to be unbelievable. Which is it?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 30 by robinrohan, posted 07-10-2006 12:02 AM | | robinrohan has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 63 of 304 (330321)
07-10-2006 10:58 AM
|
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
07-10-2006 12:12 AM
|
|
Re: another way of pondering the question
1. Premise. If there is not a God the only kind of morality and happiness anyone can have is subjective, practical. 2. As stated, this doesn't not necessarily mean that things are any different if there IS a God. 3. The way an atheist "should never speak" is about happiness and morality in any terms OTHER than practical and subjective. 4. What this further means (I guess. Robin can correct me) is that honesty requires a more sober assessment of happiness and morality in the absence of a God /absence of absolute standards than Robin thinks is expressed in what he calls "boasting" tones. Could well be but simply not included in the OP. But so far the examples he has given sound like pretty simple desciptions of what most folk would call very ordinary behavior. It is entirely possible that there are some people who are not capable of minimal standards of behavior, but none of Robins examples point to someone boasting of anything more than common traits.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 31 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 12:12 AM | | Faith has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Exemplary moral character is more than human, unless you're some kind of saint. Why?
Constant robust enthusiasm for the wonder of life is more than human. Why?
Humans are bored occasionally. Isn't that amazing and the wonder of it is we can actually find ways to fill our time without being bored.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 106 by robinrohan, posted 07-10-2006 2:42 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 111 by Brian, posted 07-10-2006 2:53 PM | | jar has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
on the subject of Exemplary
Exemplary moral character is more than human. Period. So humans can not behave in a manner worthy of imitation or that is commendable? Humans cannot behave in a fashion that can serve as an example? They cannot behave in a way that can be an illustration, a typical fashion or as a warning or admonitory?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 115 by robinrohan, posted 07-10-2006 3:04 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: Exemplary
If somebody says, "I am a man of exemplary moral character," that is a moral boast. I understand the context. He's saying that an atheist can have an exemplary moral character just as well or better than the believers. That's what this thread is about. How is it boast if it is fact?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: Exemplary
How is a simple statement like those you have posted self-praise?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: Exemplary
If by "simple," you mean ordinary, I don't think it is ordinary at all for someone to say, "I am a man of exemplary moral character." You might think that but I imagine I can think of several hundred such people right off the top of my head. Hell, there are over 30 that belong to Team EvC.
Somebody might think that, of course, but it's not normally said because it's obnoxious. No, Robin thinks it is obnoxious. So far most of the folk posting don't see the problem.
The other comment about being robustly enthusiastic for the wonders of life is a little less unusual, although if you said that to somebody in person, and meant it seriously, they might be apt to laugh in your face. Maybe in your circle, but frankly I am constantly in awe at the wonders of life.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: Exemplary
If I'm the only one who thinks it's obnoxious, then my sensibilities must be screwed up. Probably a reasonable inference.
Constantly? Don't you ever take a break? The universe runs on even when I look otherwhere. And guess what, it is still awesome. Here's a chance for you too to become someone exemplary. Why not sign up for the World Community Grid.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 162 by robinrohan, posted 07-10-2006 7:10 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Boasting
I think I have seen some examples of boasting here. For example,
I felt I was making an important point. If you read over my words, I think you will find them rather profound. I had a point to make about esoteric vocabulary, and I feel that my summation was eloquent. However, I have some serious matters to discuss here. I'm not interested in all these rules and regulations. I'm interested in the truth. That's all that concerns me. And this esoteric vocabulary will not do. No. If you can't tell me what you believe in non-esoteric terms, than I won't believe you. I'm thinking about something called "the boasts of atheists," about how happy they are and how moral they are and so forth. That's what irritates me so much. I will name names.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: Boasting
And that is the problem with your whole thread Robin. First, you are using some nostandard personal definition of what boasting is. Second, you are taking posts out of context so that no one can tell how it was meant. Third, why should anyone really care whether or not you feel their statements are boastful? I can see someone getting upset about others actions, for example I oppose those who would oppress people just because they are homosexual, but why get upset about what you have shown as boasts?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
™ Version 4.2