New Pope Thread

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During WWII he was an 18 year old pulled into service during the waning days.

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He was a deserter from the German Army, IIRC.

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2) that the Church is not even going to consider modifying its stance on issues it considers matters of infallible dogma,

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The reason many non-Catholics wish the Church to change is because many of it's policies, such as it's policy against the use of effective birth control, threatens everyone's future in many ways.

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I think the point that a lack of birth control "threatens our future" is certainly debatable (subreplacement fertility seems rather the larger threat, IMO of course).

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There is little doubt that the planet is overpopulated with humans. Human population growth is causing the rapid degradation of the global environment. The Church could go a long way towards helping this problem by endorsing responsible family planning with the use of birth control.If birth control was endorsed and encouraged among the Catholic and other religious charities working in poverty-striken areas, for example hunger and strife could be greatly reduced, because there would be far less competition for resources. If there were more respources to go around, there would likely be less violence and war, especially in the third world.

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However, putting that aside for the moment, I think for non-Catholics to think that the selection of a new Pope would lead to such a change was always rather a forlorn hope.

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Perhaps, but people used to think that about the Catholic Church WRT accepting the scientific reality of the Theory of Evolution, too.I also find it interesting that, among industrialized European countries, Italy has among the lowest birth rates, even though it is the home of the Vatican and almost all of it's citizens are Catholic.Indeed, abortion is legal in Italy with restrictions similar to those in the US, and in a brief Google I learned that around 32% of fertile, sexually active Italian women use modern contraception methods, with this number on the rise.It would seem that the reality and practicality of people's (women's and families') lives continues to erode the influence of the unrealistic and out-of-touch edicts of the celibate, all-male led Catholic Church.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-22-2005 08:18 AM

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Out of touch could be a screen for "not agreeing with us that sin is good"

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More like "not agreeing with them that X is a sin at all."

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Basically, you're asking biblicans to endorse sin, by saying "get with the times".

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If you lived in an locked house that was meant to house 6 people, but instead it was crammed to the rafters with 60 people that never left for any reason because some of the people's religion said that more people in the house is always better, would you think it was "sinful" to perhaps prevent more people from entering the house?

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How ironic. You're saying it's the fault of those who are celibate that human population is up?

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Yes, that is ironic, isn't it, that the people who don't bear the children or are responsible for raising them are dictating such edicts to the people who do and are?

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Lol. Maybe if people obeyed the bible, there wouldn't be a problem.

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Maybe if more people used birth control, there wouldn't be a problem.

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That's the worldly offering ofcourse, but the real solution is always found in God. Obeying the scriptures removes the cause AND stops the problem. That's 2-1 to Yahweh.

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So, when the Bible says "Be fruitful and multiply", how is it addressing the overpopulation and resulting global environmental degradation, and poverty due to inadequate resources we see are currently facing?

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Who do they dictate to? Atheists aswell?

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Inasmuch as the Catholic Church has influence over governments, yes, they dictate to Athiests and all non-Catholics.Catholics constitute almost one fifth of the world's population, mike. 200 heads of state attended the late Pope's funeral.I'd say that makes the Catholic Church very, very influential in the world.

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Why is it only "families" you mention? Or "males"? You mentioned catholic celibate males (pope and such). I wondered why you think it's their sin? They might dictate certain things but they are not the cause of the problem.

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The leadership of the Catholic Church are entirely (supposedly) celibate, (supposedly) straight, forbidden to marry, and male.(There is no Biblical requirement for them to be any of these things, BTW)They are dictating behaviors to people regarding issues they are completely divorced from. They cannot relate at all.

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You don't get to decide what isn't sin.

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Why not, the people who run the Catholic Church certainly do, and they change their minds on what is a sin and what isn't?What makes them better than me?

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The bible says which is sin,

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And the people in the Church are interpreting it in different ways depending upon the times. It used to be a sin to belive the earth orbited the sun, remember.

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and if anyone disagress it's irrelevant, as there would be no problem if everyone followed what God says to do.

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So, if everybody stopped using birth control, would the environmental degradation get better or worse?Please answer the question below.The "house" is the earth.If you lived in an locked house that was meant to house 6 people, but instead it was crammed to the rafters with 60 people that never left for any reason because some of the people's religion said that more people in the house is always better, would you think it was "sinful" to perhaps prevent more people from entering the house?

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I wouldn't know. I just thought you were saying that the pope and his men should say "yes, yes, fornicate by all means, but with condoms on".

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Maybe you don't realize, but they belive that nobody should ever use any birth control, including married people.So, the Church would rather have people have so many children that they can't take care of them rather than use birth control to control the number of children they want to have.

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There is always abstinence. Yes, I can almost hear your "hah". However, it is a materially possible (if difficult) option.

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True.And we see how well that works.

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Unrealistic ? Yes, many think so.

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Very unrealistic.

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But, as I've said, the Church teaches much else that many think of as unrealistic. Should it change to suit these individuals, or reamin the same to suit the millions of members that at least try their best to follow along ?

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I think it should change to reflect reality and to be much more responsible WRT the impact it's policies and edicts have upon the environment and the Earth's people.

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If the Church were to permit contraception, would that remove your issues with it ? Somehow I doubt it, but please do refute my doubts if you wish.

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It would go a long way towards increasing my respect for it, yes.It's not my only issue with the Church, though, no.

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At most the POA is a mild endorsement of monotheism. I can see how a strong atheist might object to it, but what's wrong with sitting quietly or not saying the two offending words ? Must it be a media event ?

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It's wrong because it is recited in public schools that are funded and run by our government.Last I checked, our government wasn't supposed to be endorsing or promoting or indoctrinating anyone in any religious idea, including monotheism.

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Now if you'd like to explain why quietly sitting when the POA is being recited, is some horrible state sanctioned infringement on your human rights, it might prove interesting.

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It's wrong (and illegal) because it is recited in public schools that are funded and run by our government.Last I checked, our government wasn't supposed to be endorsing or promoting or indoctrinating anyone in any religious idea, including monotheism.Let's say we changed the pledge to say, "One nation, under no God because god doesn't exist, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."Would you think that was OK? I mean, it's not like you or your children would be literally forced to say it. You don't have to agree with it, but every publically-funded school in America would recite it every morning.What would be the big deal?This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-23-2005 07:56 PM

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I'd think it was an unproven assertion, but pretty much ignore it otherwise.

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So, it would be perfectly OK with you that, as a Catholic, your government was actively promoting Atheism to all of the nation's children? With your tax money?I find it rather unlikely that you would just ignore it.What would the Pope think about a governement that did this? He would likely criticize it, right, and call upon the citizens of the US to put pressure on Lawmakers to change it?

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I wouldn't feel the need to loudly proclaim "oh, the injustice of it all" in front of 14 video cameras. That's for the Roy Moores of the world.

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Well, then you are not that into demanding your constitutional rights in public, and no one is saying that everybody has to be.However, the question wasn't "would you be a poster boy".

Paisano, do you agree or disagree with the following:It's (the POA) wrong (and illegal) because it is recited in public schools that are funded and run by our government.Last I checked, our government wasn't supposed to be endorsing or promoting or indoctrinating anyone in any religious idea, including monotheism.