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Author Topic:   Evolution Logic
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5960 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 61 of 302 (318551)
06-07-2006 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Someone who cares
06-07-2006 12:23 AM


This whole debate is quite testable. As you eluded to 'swc', if evolution is true, we need evidence of an increase in genetic information. We can test and find over and over in the lab that mutations cause a loss of information. But faith that they don't is rampant. The moral implications are too much for some. Even regular reproduction only causes a rearrangement of pre-existing genetic info. When the occasional accident or 'error' does occur, it almost exclusively results in death or an inability to procreate. Statistically irrelevant exceptions due occur.
Can you imagine the problem (in evolutionary terms) for the first asexual creature that evolved into a heterosexual creature? The animal would have to find (even in the case of a hermaphrodite) the ability to find compatible sexual organs and an incubation method. All by chance and necessity?
Darwin said, 'through slight modifications over long periods of time' (paraphrased) 'She can never take a sudden leap, but by advancing in slow sure steps.'
Even assuming that is possible, I'm no geneticist, but the amount of genetic information needed to produce these organs is enormous (mind-bendingly so) over and above the original organisms simpler structures.
My certainty is only proportionate to my capacity to 'reason' objectively.
Hope that was intelligent if not useful. I have suggested a new topic and am waiting for approval on 'what is the definition of science?' It is almost certain the moderators will deny the thread from what I've seen here so far, so read it quick 'swc'...
Dna is the most complex language in the known universe! So to imply it is alien in intelligent origin is based on what we know, not on blind faith and hopes of proving what we know false.
Jesus said, you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
btw, that's a prophetic signature from 'someone who cares'.

Any biters in the stream?

This message is a reply to:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5960 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 72 of 302 (318581)
06-07-2006 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Someone who cares
06-07-2006 1:31 AM


DNA can be a very long double helix molecule. How do you see that molecule being a language?
Good question! I concede the point. I was not specific enough. I need to say it in three parts. Then wrap it up...
1. DNA is a language for life, as an operating system is a language for a computer. It doesn't make the hardware, or itself, but only has the means to regulate it. Even Bill Gates has compared DNA to software so it's not a new example or comparison.
2. What I should have said, is that it is the most complex arrangement of instructions (contained in the information within the DNA molecule) in the known universe.
3. As such it communicates to us in a different manner as oppossed to the meaning I gave in illustration in #1. Because we know that information is a massless quantity, that is, it is not reducible to matter or energy but in fact manipulates it, tells us that information originates from an intelligent agent (i.e. Mark twain, or egyption scribes). it gives one the sense that info is 'spiritual' in origin.
If SETI reasearchers could find even a simple pattern of information coming from outer space they would jump for joy. But show them God's calling card (DNA) and as Francis Crick the nobel lauriate and geneticist said, "I can only conclude that it came in missile form from somewhere else (paraphrased)."
In that case I ask, if the laws of nature and physics on earth cannot explain DNA's origin (natural laws don't produce info but instead break it down), then how can those same laws elsewhere in the universe (and they are the same, don't argue with me about it, argue with the physicists like Steven Hawking) explain it?
We need totally different laws or 'means' to explain it coming from elsewhere be it parrallel universes, or God. That's why all the talk about an infinite number of other universes in some highly speculative physics circles. What I find shockingly compelling, is that whether you invoke God or string theory, you invoke a metaphysical argument to explain life's origin.
So much wasted time to intellectually avoid the moral dillemma.
Do you know what DNA does? How cells use it? Doesn't seem like a language to me at all but rather a template mechanism for assembling proteins.
You are spot on about the template... That's why The discovery Institute used an illustration about 'building plans' to show how DNA does it's nanowork. The difference is that in DNA, the plans are so sophisticated technologically, that it regulates organisms such as a humans that are self replicating machines organically, that have up to 100 trillion individual cells. And those cells in turn are each comprised of hundreds of smaller units called proteins. And all of those instructions are on the template DNA. All the sequencing of amino acids is found in the instructions. All the absolutely unique characteristics of the indivdual organism. Just plain everything.
Even the simplest one-celled bacteria, is now known in the last decades to be a mystery in terms of what is yet to learn about them. And the mystery is getting deeper and more complex.
The more complex the problem, the less likely it is that 'chance' has a probable means of solving it. You might get a set of die to land on snake eyes now and then. But getting the thousands of sub microscopic components together at the same time and place you need to create the simplest of life forms, is not at all a good bet given all eternity. Not when those components themselves are created within the cell. that means you need the cell to produce the cell units. Chicken / egg.
And if that's not enough, DNA could not have evolved either, because in order to have a self replicating cycle, you need the DNA that stores the template for all of the highspeed processes that take place durring cell division (unimaginable sophistication). So as Steven Meyer of the Discovery institute has said, 'you can't use natural selection to explain the origin of DNA without assuming the existence of the very thing your trying to explain.'
How is DNA a language???
Because by it, God says...BOO!
I hope that answered your excellent questions.

Any biters in the stream?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5960 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 83 of 302 (318667)
06-07-2006 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by arachnophilia
06-07-2006 2:42 AM


I can understand what your saying spiderman, and you make good points. I just don't think they're ultimately reasonable if we think about it. Please entertain an answer...
actually, that's dna's primary function. replication. it's one of the few things that DOES make itself.
Not without the rest of the cell components. DNA is not alive my friend. Even almost whole organisms are not alive. And I mean oganisms with billions of individual cells. Ever seen road kill? Or better put, know anybody who's seen DNA alive under a microscope?
I said:
quote:
If SETI reasearchers could find even a simple pattern of information coming from outer space they would jump for joy. But show them God's calling card (DNA) and as Francis Crick the nobel lauriate and geneticist said, "I can only conclude that it came in missile form from somewhere else (paraphrased)."
poor cyrptology. some combinatorists i know would be appalled. there is a difference between a string of data, and a message. now, if the human genome could be decoded into a message that contained all five books of the torah -- i'd jump right on the id bandwagon.
Me too! and a long time ago and not so relatively recently. But again, data is information. There is no data available until it is compiled by an intelligent agent. What natural laws produce data? None, because they are more data.
Evolution is a theory that is testable. The testing and evidence just don't support it. But it's 'believers' are 'certain' it's true. It's one of the greatest origins culture myths ever constructed. No simple villiger can dare doubt it, or the tribe might burn them at the philosophical stake.
Here's a sample of quotes:
"It is, however, very difficult to establish the precise lines of descent, termed phylogenies, for most organisms." (Ayala, F. J. and Valentine J. W., Evolving: The Theory and Process of Organic Evolution, 1978, p. 230)
"Undeniably, the fossil record has provided disappointingly few gradual series. The origins of many groups are still not documented at all." (Futuyma, D., Science on Trial: The Case for Evolution, 1983, p. 190-191)
"There is still a tremendous problem with the sudden diversification of multi-cellular life. There is no question about that. That's a real phenomenon." (Niles Eldredge, quoted in Darwin's Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems by Luther D. Sunderland, Master Book Publishers, Santee, California, 1988, p. 45)
"Whatever ideas authorities may have on the subject, the lungfishes, like every other major group of fishes that I know, have their origins firmly based in nothing." (Quoted in W. R. Bird, _The Origin of Species Revisited_ [Nashville: Regency, 1991; originally published by Philosophical Library, 1987], 1:62-63)
"The main problem with such phyletic gradualism is that the fossil record provides so little evidence for it. Very rarely can we trace the gradual transformation of one entire species into another through a finely graded sequence of intermediary forms." (Gould, S.J. Luria, S.E. & Singer, S., A View of Life, 1981, p. 641)
"It should come as no surprise that it would be extremely difficult to find a specific fossil species that is both intermediate in morphology between two other taxa and is also in the appropriate stratigraphic position." (Cracraft, J., "Systematics, Comparative Biology, and the Case Against Creationism," 1983, p. 180)
"Most families, orders, classes, and phyla appear rather suddenly in the fossil record, often without anatomically intermediate forms smoothly interlinking evolutionarily derived descendant taxa with their presumed ancestors." (Eldredge, N., 1989, Macro-Evolutionary Dynamics: Species, Niches, and Adaptive Peaks, McGraw-Hill Publishing Company, New York, p. 22)
"Species that were once thought to have turned into others have been found to overlap in time with these alleged descendants. In fact, the fossil record does not convincingly document a single transition from one species to another." (Stanley, S.M., The New Evolutionary Timetable: Fossils, Genes, and the Origin of Species, 1981, p. 95)
"Many fossils have been collected since 1859, tons of them, yet the impact they have had on our understanding of the relationships between living organisms is barely perceptible. ...In fact, I do not think it unfair to say that fossils, or at least the traditional interpretation of fossils, have clouded rather than clarified our attempts to reconstruct phylogeny." (Fortey, P. L., "Neontological Analysis Versus Palaeontological Stores," 1982, p. 120-121)
"Indeed, it is the chief frustration of the fossil record that we do not have empirical evidence for sustained trends in the evolution of most complex morphological adaptations." (Gould, Stephen J. and Eldredge, Niles, "Species Selection: Its Range and Power," 1988, p. 19)
"The paleontological data is consistent with the view that all of the currently recognized phyla had evolved by about 525 million years ago. Despite half a billion years of evolutionary exploration generated in Cambrian time, no new phylum level designs have appeared since then." ("Developmental Evolution of Metazoan Body plans: The Fossil Evidence," Valentine, Erwin, and Jablonski, Developmental Biology 173, Article No. 0033, 1996, p. 376)
"Many 'trends' singled out by evolutionary biologists are ex post facto rendering of phylogenetic history: biologists may simply pick out species at different points in geological time that seem to fit on some line of directional modification through time. Many trends, in other words, may exist more in the minds of the analysts than in phylogenetic history. This is particularly so in situations, especially common prior to about 1970, in which analysis of the phylogenetic relationships among species was incompletely or poorly done." (Eldredge, Niles, Macro-Evolutionary Dynamics: Species, Niches, and Adaptive Peaks, 1989, p. 134)
"The Eldredge-Gould concept of punctuated equilibria has gained wide acceptance among paleontologists. It attempts to account for the following paradox: Within continuously sampled lineages, one rarely finds the gradual morphological trends predicted by Darwinian evolution; rather, change occurs with the sudden appearance of new, well-differentiated species. Eldredge and Gould equate such appearances with speciation, although the details of these events are not preserved. ...The punctuated equilibrium model has been widely accepted, not because it has a compelling theoretical basis but because it appears to resolve a dilemma. Apart from the obvious sampling problems inherent to the observations that stimulated the model, and apart from its intrinsic circularity (one could argue that speciation can occur only when phyletic change is rapid, not vice versa), the model is more ad hoc explanation than theory, and it rests on shaky ground." (Ricklefs, Robert E., "Paleontologists Confronting Macroevolution," Science, vol. 199, 1978, p. 59)

Any biters in the stream?

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5960 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 84 of 302 (318668)
06-07-2006 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Wounded King
06-07-2006 9:14 AM


l'd love to... but I'm going to leave you hangin and go work 15 hrs. Be sure I'll have your answer in due course. Swallow the hook...

Any biters in the stream?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Wounded King, posted 06-07-2006 9:14 AM Wounded King has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5960 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 97 of 302 (318965)
06-08-2006 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Percy
06-07-2006 9:25 AM


I concede that I have no answer to many of these questions percy. I am confident that I am correct, but concede a great deal of faith. All things are ultimately believed on faith. I accepted the evolution indoctrination in my public education. I have a high school education and drive a 05 Peterbuilt. My zeal far outwieghs my education.
I believe that God makes Himself known without respect to education. Wouldn't be much of a God if he didn't. In fact, as a former proffessor and good friend once told me, education and intellect only hinder the possibility for repentance. He provides a way to prove He exists, so it is certainly 'testable' in a nontypical usage of the term, and only after the fact.
I still have to provide some sources for some folks, but for the most part, I'll leave it alone. I have given my opinions, and still hold them. I'm running out of energy to keep up. I don't have the time to get the education that I should have. The problem was, that even in school and not religious, there was no life in the thigns taught. It was so boring. I'll take the spit as a hang on my cross.
Someone in this forum made the comment in their suggestion line, that belief is based on experience. It's definitely a key ingredient to truth verification. Logical consistency, imperical adequacy, and experiencial relavance. I have met God, so I believe. I see evidence for Him, and it is consistent.
The most important ingredient, was that I knew I was guilty of sin, and confessed who I really was to Him. That's what opens the door.
Don't bother me with fruedian psychology to persuade otherwise, I know in whom I have believed.
I appriciate the thumping you just gave me. There's no denying it on worldly terms. But I am not of the world anymore. The wise Bible teachers were right... (you wouldn't understand) and I underestimated the opposition.
I hate to click that middle button... you have no idea! But my honesty is more important to me than my pride. So eat it up...

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by lfen, posted 06-08-2006 2:23 AM Rob has replied
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5960 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 99 of 302 (319045)
06-08-2006 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by lfen
06-08-2006 2:23 AM


Well thank you Ifen. I don't feel humiliated, just foolish for starting something I don't have the energy to finish. Some of these questions would take a lot of time for me to research and think about. If I could argue them after the research (and I believe I could) It wouldn't matter to many. They would believe that I am imaginative and playing a good game (transferrence).
For those of you (and I don't pretend to know who is who) who are really undecided, and earnestly seeking understanding, good traveling to you. May you find the truth...
I think I am better off sticking to philosophy. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot to learn there too. But in that vein, I mentioned in one of the threads and still maintain that the more complicated science becomes, the less likely chance is able to explain it. Some folks, and some of you who have read their arguments, have much bigger imaginations than I. It is my opinion (philosophically) by way of simple reason, that in many cases, they travel well beyond obfuscation of the obvious.
Isa 65: 2
All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations.

Any biters in the stream?

This message is a reply to:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5960 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 100 of 302 (319050)
06-08-2006 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Wounded King
06-07-2006 9:14 AM


Sorry for being a smart ass. This isn't the source directly. The documentary in which I have my source is still at a friends house and he is out of town. I would have loved to have given you the names of the scientists specifically. But it did originate from AIG. Here are some links to articles and brief descriptions. There were 174 hits. So these are only a sample of them.
So glad your eager to consider their arguments in the search for truth.
[PDF] Answers Study Guide 5
... i. Mutations are copying mistakes as genetic information is passed from parent to
child. ii. This also involves a loss or corruption of the original genetic ...
http://www.answersingenesis.org/...udy_guides/answersSG5.pdf
Genetic Mutations Q&A - Creation / Evolution
... ever beneficial? Can any genetic information be gained from mutations? Ancon sheep:
just another loss mutation; Argument: Some mutations are beneficial (from ...
Mutations | Answers in Genesis - 38k
Argument: Some mutations are beneficial
... out in various ways how new traits, even helpful, adaptive traits, can arise through
loss of genetic information (which is to be expected from mutations). ...
Mutations | Answers in Genesis - 48k
Genetic Mutations Q&A - Creation / Evolution
... ever beneficial? Can any genetic information be gained from mutations? Ancon sheep:
just another loss mutation; Argument: Some mutations are beneficial (from ...
Mutations | Answers in Genesis - 38k
Genetic Variance of Influenza Type A Avian Virus and its ...
... Keep in mind, such mutations do not impose any ... it is due to loss of protein specificity
(eg ... or intraspecies switching of similar genetic materials which contain ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis - 17k
Ancon sheep: just another loss mutation
... Achondroplasia is a type of genetic dwarfism characterized by slow limb growth ... is
true with most other mutations, is a loss mutation. This type of mutation ...
Ancon Sheep: Just Another Loss Mutation | Answers in Genesis - 41k
Has evolution really been observed? (Summary article)
... The rare ”beneficial’ mutations to which evolutionists cling all ... which the net
result is a loss of information in the ... or by way of reduced genetic variety. ...
Has Evolution Really Been Observed? | Answers in Genesis - 42k
Refuting Evolution (Series 2) - Lesson 2: Chapter 2 - ...
... role of ”natural selection’ and ”mutations’ within this model. Include
in ... processes result in a net loss of genetic information within a population ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis - 33k
The mutant 'feather-duster' budgie
... a role in this genetic problem. 3 As their ... good’ original state. Many mutations
lead to innocuous neutral ... is always due to a loss of information resulting in ...
Answers in Genesis - 42k
Professor of genetics says 'No!' to evolution
... also occur due to accidental loss of alleles (genetic drift) in ... Both amount to decline
in genetic information. Macroevolution requires its ... POSITIVE MUTATIONS? ...
Professor of Genetics Says 'No!' to Evolution | Answers in Genesis - 41k
New plant colours”is this new information?
... However, until the biochemical/genetic basis of the difference ... due to new information.
Loss of information in some ... do not say that mutations are always harmful ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis - 38k
Ligers and wholphins? What next?
... claws. So the differences between the cats could have arisen through loss of genetic
information due to mutations (loss of the bone; loss of claw retraction). ...
Zonkeys, Ligers, and Wolphins, Oh My! | Answers in Genesis ... - 50k
Swift swallow selection
... s toolbox) had introduced new genetic information coding for longer feathers. But
mutations are virtually always downhill, ie, a loss of information, including ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis - 36k
Mutations”part of evolution’s engine?
... out in this chapter, some mutations can cause an organism to lose genetic information
and yet gain ... the mutation caused a loss of information but was ...
Are Mutations Part of the Engine of Evolution? | Answers in Genesis - 35k
What! . no potatoes?
... other things. So the loss of the genetic information ... that about 75% of genetic diversity
in agricultural ... of evolution (random mutations and natural selection ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis - 46k
Evolution revolution
... Mutations are rare genetic mistakes that may occur when cells divide ... Whiting, MF,
Bradler, S. and Maxwell, T., Loss and recovery of wings in stick insects ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis - 35k
Genetics: no friend of evolution
... we expect from random mutations, from genetic mistakes? We would expect virtually ... to
be blown into the sea. Mutations producing the loss of flight could be ...
Genetics: No Friend of Evolution | Answers in Genesis - 43k
AiG’s response to PBS-TV series Evolution-Episode 4: The ...
... due to increased genetic information. The above ... explained how a loss of information
could ... of information-increasing mutations conferring antibiotic resistance ...
Natural Selection Topic | Answers in Genesis - 49k
AiG’s response to PBS-TV series Evolution-Episode 4: The ...
... due to increased genetic information. The above ... explained how a loss of information
could ... of information-increasing mutations conferring antibiotic resistance ...
Natural Selection Topic | Answers in Genesis - 49k
Evolution revolution
... Mutations are rare genetic mistakes that may occur when cells divide ... Whiting, MF,
Bradler, S. and Maxwell, T., Loss and recovery of wings in stick insects ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis - 37k
Book review: Climbing Mount Improbable
... of his technical book, Genetic Takeover, 18 is one of ... new information, but observed
mutations have never been shown ... do so. Sometimes a loss of information can ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis - 72k
One rule for evolutionists, and another for creationists!
... created by mutations (for example, hairless, pushed in face, stumpy legs, etc.) is
due to loss of information, not the addition of new genetic information.’. ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis ... - 49k
A faithful man takes on faith-based teaching
... it is natural selection (change within the created kinds) through mutations (a
loss of genetic information) that causes change over time and in a downward ...
A Faithful Man Takes on Faith-Based Teaching | Answers in Genesis - 35k
The bamboozling panda
... mutations are genetic copying mistakes which cause defects, even defects may on
rare occasions be helpful, although they still involve corruption or loss of ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis - 58k
Worm evolution in pollution?
... only act upon existing (genetic) information. ... surrounding environment. The apparent
loss/corruption of the gene(s ... that of all observed mutations which have some ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis - 41k

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5960 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 154 of 302 (319395)
06-09-2006 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Someone who cares
06-08-2006 7:52 PM


Re: Great example
Our Lord wan't kidding about sending us among wolves my friend. i'm going to have to be more careful.
Can any of you provide references showing an increase in genetic information durring cell division or mutations? I know that my sources are not readable for you and you won't waste your time on such spimple simon quackery. So perhaps you could just provide an instance to the contrary but remember... don't cut and paste!

Any biters in the stream?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5960 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 157 of 302 (319402)
06-09-2006 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by lfen
06-09-2006 12:12 AM


Re: Great example
Lol

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by lfen, posted 06-09-2006 12:12 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5960 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 158 of 302 (319404)
06-09-2006 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by jar
06-09-2006 12:09 AM


Re: Great example
Can you tell me whether ACT, CGA, TAC or CAG has more information?
Well, I'd have to say that they all have the same amount of information...
Can you tell me whether ACT has more or less information than say... ATCGAACTGAC?
That's what I'm talking about...
A bacteria doesn't have 3 billion characters in it's genome like you do... How'd we get from on to the other??? That would be evolution.
It would be nice to see ACT evolve to TGCA. Just a litle is all I'm looking for. Got any references? I do, even if they're stupid to you...
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Any biters in the stream?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by jar, posted 06-09-2006 12:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5960 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 160 of 302 (319407)
06-09-2006 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by lfen
06-09-2006 12:50 AM


Re: Great example
It's allright. We all do it!

This message is a reply to:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5960 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 163 of 302 (319410)
06-09-2006 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by jar
06-09-2006 1:19 AM


Re: on pairs and tells
Can you tell me whether a modern hand held computer has more information to perform differring functions, than an old hand held calculator?
I know it's just 1's and 0's, but doesn't the arrangement specify the function? And isn't that information non-periodic? And isn't that information meaningful to it's functions? And isn't it complex?
Information: Complex, Specified, non-periodic, meaningful text. (all definitions of information have these in common)
Examples of information: Telephone book
Bible
Software
Statistics (ask about this one)
Any spoken Language formed from simple characters into complex formulations and meaningful to communication.
It must be meaningful to something. DNA to life, spoken word for communication. Statistics to the knothead. Software to the computer.
Can you give an example of complex specified non-repeating, meaningful text, that is not produced by intelligence?

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Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5960 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 165 of 302 (319413)
06-09-2006 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by kuresu
06-09-2006 2:06 AM


Re: on pairs and tells
yeah, the experiment done by Miller and Urey that produced amino acids and some RNA. This, and the ones that followed, mimic early-earth atmospheres, so this "language" can be created without intelligence. It also does it every day, when your body is replicating somatic or gametic cells. No intelligence involved, just a bunch of chemical reactions. Unless, of course, you feel that God has his hand in you insides moving everything around (now that would be an intersting image of God--one with an infinite number of arms to move an infinite number of things ).
I see! So what your telling me, is that two intelligent agents created conditions, and manipulated matter, to produce an argument that it can happen without the influence of intelligent agents?
Not very intelligent...
And to your last point (oh boy) that is the great thing about an infinite God. Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient. Not to mention infinitely living, invinitely JUST (which really aught to scare the pants off nitwits like us), and fortunately infinitely merciful to children playing with something as dangerous as pride! He surely showed control when he died for you while you spit on Him. Truely worthy of worship...
He 'is' truth, so please have some respect for it...
Edited by Rob, : omni what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by kuresu, posted 06-09-2006 2:06 AM kuresu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Wounded King, posted 06-09-2006 4:59 AM Rob has replied
 Message 170 by ramoss, posted 06-09-2006 7:46 AM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5960 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 172 of 302 (319478)
06-09-2006 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Wounded King
06-09-2006 4:59 AM


Re: on pairs and tells
Well, I know that what I was asking was whether anyone had a reference for an increase in genetic info durring mutations or cell division. All I got was a guy telling me I was mutating (not evolving) and people talking about how the first amino acids may have formed simple and biologically meaningless subcomponents.
As to that last point, You may wish to listen to Dean Kenyon, Biology professor at San Fransisco State (emeritus). Considering that he and his co-author, Gary Steinman, wrote the text to show that amino acids formed because of simple chemical laws, kenyon following quote is interesting (paraphrased).
After much testing, including a period of time at NASA Aims Reasearch center, we know know that amino acids do not have the ability to organize themselves into any biologically meaningful sequences. So we haven't the slightest chance for a chemical origin for life.
I probably butchered that quote, but you can watch him go into great detail and say these things yourself on a documentary called, 'Unlocking the mystery of life'. I didn't have the time to watch it right here and get it perfect.
My definition of information comes from Phillip Johnson, professor of law at the University of California at Berkeley. Also got it from the same documentary that you guys don't need to watch, because these are all Christian universtities and aren't really doing science.

Any biters in the stream?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Wounded King, posted 06-09-2006 4:59 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Wounded King, posted 06-09-2006 10:20 AM Rob has replied
 Message 176 by nwr, posted 06-09-2006 10:27 AM Rob has replied
 Message 180 by Percy, posted 06-09-2006 10:56 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5960 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 174 of 302 (319484)
06-09-2006 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by jar
06-09-2006 9:31 AM


Re: on pairs and tells
Like I said, you guys don't need to watch 'Unlocking the mystery of life. Or the great question and answer segment in the bonus material, where you can hear Dembski, Johnson, Behi, Meyers, Kenyon and others, explaining as simply as possible to those of you who like to convolute and obfuscate, why the they believe that intelligent design is true.
You boys simply label people and write them off because some other professor says there is a problem with their analysis.
Watch it yourself, it's at Amazon. They did a great job, and I concur with them as a free and independant thinker. The convention be damned...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by jar, posted 06-09-2006 9:31 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by ramoss, posted 06-09-2006 1:43 PM Rob has not replied

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