Evolution Logic

This whole debate is quite testable. As you eluded to 'swc', if evolution is true, we need evidence of an increase in genetic information. We can test and find over and over in the lab that mutations cause a loss of information. But faith that they don't is rampant. The moral implications are too much for some. Even regular reproduction only causes a rearrangement of pre-existing genetic info. When the occasional accident or 'error' does occur, it almost exclusively results in death or an inability to procreate. Statistically irrelevant exceptions due occur.Can you imagine the problem (in evolutionary terms) for the first asexual creature that evolved into a heterosexual creature? The animal would have to find (even in the case of a hermaphrodite) the ability to find compatible sexual organs and an incubation method. All by chance and necessity?Darwin said, 'through slight modifications over long periods of time' (paraphrased) 'She can never take a sudden leap, but by advancing in slow sure steps.'Even assuming that is possible, I'm no geneticist, but the amount of genetic information needed to produce these organs is enormous (mind-bendingly so) over and above the original organisms simpler structures.My certainty is only proportionate to my capacity to 'reason' objectively.Hope that was intelligent if not useful. I have suggested a new topic and am waiting for approval on 'what is the definition of science?' It is almost certain the moderators will deny the thread from what I've seen here so far, so read it quick 'swc'...Dna is the most complex language in the known universe! So to imply it is alien in intelligent origin is based on what we know, not on blind faith and hopes of proving what we know false.Jesus said, you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.btw, that's a prophetic signature from 'someone who cares'.

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Any biters in the stream?

Good question! I concede the point. I was not specific enough. I need to say it in three parts. Then wrap it up...1. DNA is a language for life, as an operating system is a language for a computer. It doesn't make the hardware, or itself, but only has the means to regulate it. Even Bill Gates has compared DNA to software so it's not a new example or comparison.2. What I should have said, is that it is the most complex arrangement of instructions (contained in the information within the DNA molecule) in the known universe.3. As such it communicates to us in a different manner as oppossed to the meaning I gave in illustration in #1. Because we know that information is a massless quantity, that is, it is not reducible to matter or energy but in fact manipulates it, tells us that information originates from an intelligent agent (i.e. Mark twain, or egyption scribes). it gives one the sense that info is 'spiritual' in origin.If SETI reasearchers could find even a simple pattern of information coming from outer space they would jump for joy. But show them God's calling card (DNA) and as Francis Crick the nobel lauriate and geneticist said, "I can only conclude that it came in missile form from somewhere else (paraphrased)."In that case I ask, if the laws of nature and physics on earth cannot explain DNA's origin (natural laws don't produce info but instead break it down), then how can those same laws elsewhere in the universe (and they are the same, don't argue with me about it, argue with the physicists like Steven Hawking) explain it?We need totally different laws or 'means' to explain it coming from elsewhere be it parrallel universes, or God. That's why all the talk about an infinite number of other universes in some highly speculative physics circles. What I find shockingly compelling, is that whether you invoke God or string theory, you invoke a metaphysical argument to explain life's origin.So much wasted time to intellectually avoid the moral dillemma. You are spot on about the template... That's why The discovery Institute used an illustration about 'building plans' to show how DNA does it's nanowork. The difference is that in DNA, the plans are so sophisticated technologically, that it regulates organisms such as a humans that are self replicating machines organically, that have up to 100 trillion individual cells. And those cells in turn are each comprised of hundreds of smaller units called proteins. And all of those instructions are on the template DNA. All the sequencing of amino acids is found in the instructions. All the absolutely unique characteristics of the indivdual organism. Just plain everything.Even the simplest one-celled bacteria, is now known in the last decades to be a mystery in terms of what is yet to learn about them. And the mystery is getting deeper and more complex.The more complex the problem, the less likely it is that 'chance' has a probable means of solving it. You might get a set of die to land on snake eyes now and then. But getting the thousands of sub microscopic components together at the same time and place you need to create the simplest of life forms, is not at all a good bet given all eternity. Not when those components themselves are created within the cell. that means you need the cell to produce the cell units. Chicken / egg.And if that's not enough, DNA could not have evolved either, because in order to have a self replicating cycle, you need the DNA that stores the template for all of the highspeed processes that take place durring cell division (unimaginable sophistication). So as Steven Meyer of the Discovery institute has said, 'you can't use natural selection to explain the origin of DNA without assuming the existence of the very thing your trying to explain.'How is DNA a language???Because by it, God says...BOO!I hope that answered your excellent questions.

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Any biters in the stream?

I can understand what your saying spiderman, and you make good points. I just don't think they're ultimately reasonable if we think about it. Please entertain an answer... Not without the rest of the cell components. DNA is not alive my friend. Even almost whole organisms are not alive. And I mean oganisms with billions of individual cells. Ever seen road kill? Or better put, know anybody who's seen DNA alive under a microscope?I said:

quote:

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If SETI reasearchers could find even a simple pattern of information coming from outer space they would jump for joy. But show them God's calling card (DNA) and as Francis Crick the nobel lauriate and geneticist said, "I can only conclude that it came in missile form from somewhere else (paraphrased)."

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Me too! and a long time ago and not so relatively recently. But again, data is information. There is no data available until it is compiled by an intelligent agent. What natural laws produce data? None, because they are more data.Evolution is a theory that is testable. The testing and evidence just don't support it. But it's 'believers' are 'certain' it's true. It's one of the greatest origins culture myths ever constructed. No simple villiger can dare doubt it, or the tribe might burn them at the philosophical stake.Here's a sample of quotes:

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Any biters in the stream?

l'd love to... but I'm going to leave you hangin and go work 15 hrs. Be sure I'll have your answer in due course. Swallow the hook...

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Any biters in the stream?

I concede that I have no answer to many of these questions percy. I am confident that I am correct, but concede a great deal of faith. All things are ultimately believed on faith. I accepted the evolution indoctrination in my public education. I have a high school education and drive a 05 Peterbuilt. My zeal far outwieghs my education.I believe that God makes Himself known without respect to education. Wouldn't be much of a God if he didn't. In fact, as a former proffessor and good friend once told me, education and intellect only hinder the possibility for repentance. He provides a way to prove He exists, so it is certainly 'testable' in a nontypical usage of the term, and only after the fact.I still have to provide some sources for some folks, but for the most part, I'll leave it alone. I have given my opinions, and still hold them. I'm running out of energy to keep up. I don't have the time to get the education that I should have. The problem was, that even in school and not religious, there was no life in the thigns taught. It was so boring. I'll take the spit as a hang on my cross.Someone in this forum made the comment in their suggestion line, that belief is based on experience. It's definitely a key ingredient to truth verification. Logical consistency, imperical adequacy, and experiencial relavance. I have met God, so I believe. I see evidence for Him, and it is consistent.The most important ingredient, was that I knew I was guilty of sin, and confessed who I really was to Him. That's what opens the door.Don't bother me with fruedian psychology to persuade otherwise, I know in whom I have believed.I appriciate the thumping you just gave me. There's no denying it on worldly terms. But I am not of the world anymore. The wise Bible teachers were right... (you wouldn't understand) and I underestimated the opposition.I hate to click that middle button... you have no idea! But my honesty is more important to me than my pride. So eat it up...

Well thank you Ifen. I don't feel humiliated, just foolish for starting something I don't have the energy to finish. Some of these questions would take a lot of time for me to research and think about. If I could argue them after the research (and I believe I could) It wouldn't matter to many. They would believe that I am imaginative and playing a good game (transferrence).For those of you (and I don't pretend to know who is who) who are really undecided, and earnestly seeking understanding, good traveling to you. May you find the truth...I think I am better off sticking to philosophy. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot to learn there too. But in that vein, I mentioned in one of the threads and still maintain that the more complicated science becomes, the less likely chance is able to explain it. Some folks, and some of you who have read their arguments, have much bigger imaginations than I. It is my opinion (philosophically) by way of simple reason, that in many cases, they travel well beyond obfuscation of the obvious.Isa 65: 2
All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations.

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Any biters in the stream?

Sorry for being a smart ass. This isn't the source directly. The documentary in which I have my source is still at a friends house and he is out of town. I would have loved to have given you the names of the scientists specifically. But it did originate from AIG. Here are some links to articles and brief descriptions. There were 174 hits. So these are only a sample of them.So glad your eager to consider their arguments in the search for truth.[PDF] Answers Study Guide 5
... i. Mutations are copying mistakes as genetic information is passed from parent to
child. ii. This also involves a loss or corruption of the original genetic ...
http://www.answersingenesis.org/...udy_guides/answersSG5.pdfGenetic Mutations Q&A - Creation / Evolution
... ever beneficial? Can any genetic information be gained from mutations? Ancon sheep:
just another loss mutation; Argument: Some mutations are beneficial (from ...
Mutations | Answers in Genesis - 38kArgument: Some mutations are beneficial
... out in various ways how new traits, even helpful, adaptive traits, can arise through
loss of genetic information (which is to be expected from mutations). ...
Mutations | Answers in Genesis - 48kGenetic Mutations Q&A - Creation / Evolution
... ever beneficial? Can any genetic information be gained from mutations? Ancon sheep:
just another loss mutation; Argument: Some mutations are beneficial (from ...
Mutations | Answers in Genesis - 38kGenetic Variance of Influenza Type A Avian Virus and its ...
... Keep in mind, such mutations do not impose any ... it is due to loss of protein specificity
(eg ... or intraspecies switching of similar genetic materials which contain ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis - 17kAncon sheep: just another loss mutation
... Achondroplasia is a type of genetic dwarfism characterized by slow limb growth ... is
true with most other mutations, is a loss mutation. This type of mutation ...
Ancon Sheep: Just Another Loss Mutation | Answers in Genesis - 41kHas evolution really been observed? (Summary article)
... The rare ”beneficial’ mutations to which evolutionists cling all ... which the net
result is a loss of information in the ... or by way of reduced genetic variety. ...
Has Evolution Really Been Observed? | Answers in Genesis - 42kRefuting Evolution (Series 2) - Lesson 2: Chapter 2 - ...
... role of ”natural selection’ and ”mutations’ within this model. Include
in ... processes result in a net loss of genetic information within a population ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis - 33kThe mutant 'feather-duster' budgie
... a role in this genetic problem. 3 As their ... good’ original state. Many mutations
lead to innocuous neutral ... is always due to a loss of information resulting in ...
Answers in Genesis - 42kProfessor of genetics says 'No!' to evolution
... also occur due to accidental loss of alleles (genetic drift) in ... Both amount to decline
in genetic information. Macroevolution requires its ... POSITIVE MUTATIONS? ...
Professor of Genetics Says 'No!' to Evolution | Answers in Genesis - 41kNew plant colours”is this new information?
... However, until the biochemical/genetic basis of the difference ... due to new information.
Loss of information in some ... do not say that mutations are always harmful ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis - 38kLigers and wholphins? What next?
... claws. So the differences between the cats could have arisen through loss of genetic
information due to mutations (loss of the bone; loss of claw retraction). ...
Zonkeys, Ligers, and Wolphins, Oh My! | Answers in Genesis ... - 50kSwift swallow selection
... s toolbox) had introduced new genetic information coding for longer feathers. But
mutations are virtually always downhill, ie, a loss of information, including ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis - 36kMutations”part of evolution’s engine?
... out in this chapter, some mutations can cause an organism to lose genetic information
and yet gain ... the mutation caused a loss of information but was ...
Are Mutations Part of the Engine of Evolution? | Answers in Genesis - 35kWhat! . no potatoes?
... other things. So the loss of the genetic information ... that about 75% of genetic diversity
in agricultural ... of evolution (random mutations and natural selection ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis - 46kEvolution revolution
... Mutations are rare genetic mistakes that may occur when cells divide ... Whiting, MF,
Bradler, S. and Maxwell, T., Loss and recovery of wings in stick insects ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis - 35kGenetics: no friend of evolution
... we expect from random mutations, from genetic mistakes? We would expect virtually ... to
be blown into the sea. Mutations producing the loss of flight could be ...
Genetics: No Friend of Evolution | Answers in Genesis - 43kAiG’s response to PBS-TV series Evolution-Episode 4: The ...
... due to increased genetic information. The above ... explained how a loss of information
could ... of information-increasing mutations conferring antibiotic resistance ...
Natural Selection Topic | Answers in Genesis - 49kAiG’s response to PBS-TV series Evolution-Episode 4: The ...
... due to increased genetic information. The above ... explained how a loss of information
could ... of information-increasing mutations conferring antibiotic resistance ...
Natural Selection Topic | Answers in Genesis - 49kEvolution revolution
... Mutations are rare genetic mistakes that may occur when cells divide ... Whiting, MF,
Bradler, S. and Maxwell, T., Loss and recovery of wings in stick insects ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis - 37kBook review: Climbing Mount Improbable
... of his technical book, Genetic Takeover, 18 is one of ... new information, but observed
mutations have never been shown ... do so. Sometimes a loss of information can ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis - 72kOne rule for evolutionists, and another for creationists!
... created by mutations (for example, hairless, pushed in face, stumpy legs, etc.) is
due to loss of information, not the addition of new genetic information.’. ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis ... - 49kA faithful man takes on faith-based teaching
... it is natural selection (change within the created kinds) through mutations (a
loss of genetic information) that causes change over time and in a downward ...
A Faithful Man Takes on Faith-Based Teaching | Answers in Genesis - 35kThe bamboozling panda
... mutations are genetic copying mistakes which cause defects, even defects may on
rare occasions be helpful, although they still involve corruption or loss of ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis - 58kWorm evolution in pollution?
... only act upon existing (genetic) information. ... surrounding environment. The apparent
loss/corruption of the gene(s ... that of all observed mutations which have some ...
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis - 41k

Our Lord wan't kidding about sending us among wolves my friend. i'm going to have to be more careful.Can any of you provide references showing an increase in genetic information durring cell division or mutations? I know that my sources are not readable for you and you won't waste your time on such spimple simon quackery. So perhaps you could just provide an instance to the contrary but remember... don't cut and paste!

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Any biters in the stream?

Lol

Well, I'd have to say that they all have the same amount of information...Can you tell me whether ACT has more or less information than say... ATCGAACTGAC?That's what I'm talking about...A bacteria doesn't have 3 billion characters in it's genome like you do... How'd we get from on to the other??? That would be evolution.It would be nice to see ACT evolve to TGCA. Just a litle is all I'm looking for. Got any references? I do, even if they're stupid to you... Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

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It's allright. We all do it!

Can you tell me whether a modern hand held computer has more information to perform differring functions, than an old hand held calculator?I know it's just 1's and 0's, but doesn't the arrangement specify the function? And isn't that information non-periodic? And isn't that information meaningful to it's functions? And isn't it complex?Information: Complex, Specified, non-periodic, meaningful text. (all definitions of information have these in common)Examples of information: Telephone book
Bible
Software
Statistics (ask about this one)
Any spoken Language formed from simple characters into complex formulations and meaningful to communication.It must be meaningful to something. DNA to life, spoken word for communication. Statistics to the knothead. Software to the computer.Can you give an example of complex specified non-repeating, meaningful text, that is not produced by intelligence?

I see! So what your telling me, is that two intelligent agents created conditions, and manipulated matter, to produce an argument that it can happen without the influence of intelligent agents?Not very intelligent...And to your last point (oh boy) that is the great thing about an infinite God. Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient. Not to mention infinitely living, invinitely JUST (which really aught to scare the pants off nitwits like us), and fortunately infinitely merciful to children playing with something as dangerous as pride! He surely showed control when he died for you while you spit on Him. Truely worthy of worship...He 'is' truth, so please have some respect for it...Edited by Rob, : omni what?

Well, I know that what I was asking was whether anyone had a reference for an increase in genetic info durring mutations or cell division. All I got was a guy telling me I was mutating (not evolving) and people talking about how the first amino acids may have formed simple and biologically meaningless subcomponents.As to that last point, You may wish to listen to Dean Kenyon, Biology professor at San Fransisco State (emeritus). Considering that he and his co-author, Gary Steinman, wrote the text to show that amino acids formed because of simple chemical laws, kenyon following quote is interesting (paraphrased).After much testing, including a period of time at NASA Aims Reasearch center, we know know that amino acids do not have the ability to organize themselves into any biologically meaningful sequences. So we haven't the slightest chance for a chemical origin for life.I probably butchered that quote, but you can watch him go into great detail and say these things yourself on a documentary called, 'Unlocking the mystery of life'. I didn't have the time to watch it right here and get it perfect.My definition of information comes from Phillip Johnson, professor of law at the University of California at Berkeley. Also got it from the same documentary that you guys don't need to watch, because these are all Christian universtities and aren't really doing science.

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Any biters in the stream?

Like I said, you guys don't need to watch 'Unlocking the mystery of life. Or the great question and answer segment in the bonus material, where you can hear Dembski, Johnson, Behi, Meyers, Kenyon and others, explaining as simply as possible to those of you who like to convolute and obfuscate, why the they believe that intelligent design is true.You boys simply label people and write them off because some other professor says there is a problem with their analysis.Watch it yourself, it's at Amazon. They did a great job, and I concur with them as a free and independant thinker. The convention be damned...