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Author Topic:   Evolution Logic
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 850 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 8 of 302 (313935)
05-20-2006 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by dorkfrommarn
05-20-2006 3:36 PM


Re: Need, want or curiosity
yes but would you walk from Istanbul to Bagdad for no reason?
It's an analogy, dorkfrommarn. If the weather gradually kept getting colder and colder at Istanbul, do you think perhaps a family of foxes there might walk a little to the east - enough so that they denned up in slightly less severe winters every year? Over 500 generations, might they not be to Baghdad?

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 850 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 31 of 302 (318466)
06-06-2006 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Someone who cares
06-06-2006 10:06 PM


Hi, SWC!
Or if you found a REAL fossil of a scale evolving into a feather.
What are you trying to say here? Scales and feathers don't reproduce, and don't do like X-men and morph into something new with titanium claws.
Animals with scales and feathers, like chickens with scales on their legs, do reproduce, and the chicks don't exactly copy every feature of the parents. Some fancy breeds of chickens even have feathers down to their feet - where their ancestors had scales. Is this what you're driving at?

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 850 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 34 of 302 (318476)
06-06-2006 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Someone who cares
06-06-2006 10:36 PM


So, if reptiles evolved into birds, the scales would have to have evolved into feathers.
As in the example I gave you, where the main selection pressure for the evolutionary event happened to be human desire for goofy-looking chickens. Leg scales ----> feathers. QED.
No, I don't know you - I'm a lazy, slow typist and abbreviate things sometimes.

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Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 850 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 37 of 302 (318483)
06-06-2006 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Someone who cares
06-06-2006 10:48 PM


In that case you need to look into the large selection of bird-like dinosaur and dinosaur-like bird fossils that they just keep on finding in China, Madagascar, and Argentina. I'll have to dig out my file on them to give you names to Google - there are examples of a variety of not-quite-feathers on dinosaurs all the way to flight-like feathers on "birds" with teeth and long bony tails.
That would make a mighty nice thread, btw, if some of you palaeo freaks would help out.....

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Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 850 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 86 of 302 (318673)
06-07-2006 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Rob
06-07-2006 9:18 AM


There is no data available until it is compiled by an intelligent agent.
Interstellar gas clouds are intelligent now? They receive and "use" data from stars and other gas clouds, y'know.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 850 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 111 of 302 (319288)
06-08-2006 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Someone who cares
06-08-2006 7:52 PM


Re: Great example
Because Gingerich constructed a picture of the skull and Pakicetus with just 2 skull fragments!
Untrue. You can see the initial 1983 paper yourself, pdf over there.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 850 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 112 of 302 (319290)
06-08-2006 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Someone who cares
06-08-2006 8:54 PM


Re: Yet another mistake
They were seperate creatures created by GOD.
Before he did whales? Like trilobites were created and then died out utterly before the first modern ray-finned fish was created? That doesn't sound like "six days."

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Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 850 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 117 of 302 (319301)
06-08-2006 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Someone who cares
06-08-2006 9:02 PM


Re: bump for SWC
I would say macroevolution would have to be the evolution of big changes between family taxons or higher taxons.
I would say something similar, I think. To use a well-worn analogy, 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 really does equal fourteen. Those little changes add up. That's why humans don't look so much like colugos: our ancestors have been undergoing tiny changes down through the several million generations since we shared a mama. And neither of us look like her, either.

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Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 850 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 130 of 302 (319343)
06-08-2006 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Someone who cares
06-08-2006 10:04 PM


Re: Great example
That link doesn't work for some reason...
Hmmm. Try Philip D. Gingerich and go to
Gingerich, P. D., N. A. Wells, D. E. Russell, and S. M. I. Shah.? 1983.? Origin of whales in epicontinental remnant seas: new evidence from the early Eocene of Pakistan.? Science, 220: 403-406. PDF down in the references.

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Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 850 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 137 of 302 (319357)
06-08-2006 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Someone who cares
06-08-2006 10:06 PM


Re: Yet another mistake
What makes you so sure that the trilobites died out before the first modern ray-finned fish existed? Proof?
The same thing that makes me sure that conodonts didn't live with diatoms, or eurypterids with crabs, or mososaurs with whales, or placoderms with pleisiosaurs: there's never been fossils of the first of each pair found in the same rock with one of the last of each pair. The firsts were all extinct before the seconds evolved.
Fusilinids and rudists.
Dicynodonts and crocodiles.
Dinosaurs with grass. Rugose with scleratinian corals.
A paleontologist could go on all night. This is how the Christian parson/geologists of the early 1800's figured out that the Earth is very old and that Noah's Flood wasn't. They looked at the rocks.

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Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 850 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 139 of 302 (319360)
06-08-2006 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Someone who cares
06-08-2006 10:25 PM


No one has showed me how a feather would have evolved from other tissue.
I referred you to chickens with feathers on their legs, where their ancestors had scales/scutes/? in that position. There ya go.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 850 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 149 of 302 (319378)
06-08-2006 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Someone who cares
06-08-2006 10:47 PM


Re: Great example
I think it's a dead link. Did it work with you?
Yup. I try to always check. Must be one o' them "different 'puter" things.

This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 850 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 150 of 302 (319381)
06-08-2006 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Someone who cares
06-08-2006 10:58 PM


Re: Yet another mistake
Have you considered that the geologic layers could have been layed down by a universal flood? Not by millions of years?
Yes, I have, as did those geologists. Not just the fossils, but the nature of the rocks themselves, are incompatible with Fluds and short timespans.
We can take this to the Geology and the Great Flood forum if you want to learn more.

This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 850 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 229 of 302 (320235)
06-10-2006 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Someone who cares
06-10-2006 8:00 PM


Re: Great example
See, Gingerich probably did draw the picture with only two skull fragments.
You couldn't open the pdf of the 1983 paper, IIRC, but it said:
"Anatomically, Pakicetus is the best known genus, being represented by the posterior portion of an exceptionally well preserved cranium, two dentaries, and isolated upper and lower cheek teeth."
More than "two skull fragments." And it was compared with another species in the same genus.

This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 850 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 233 of 302 (320242)
06-10-2006 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Someone who cares
06-10-2006 8:52 PM


Re: define "Macro"evolution ... eh?
Yes, variation does happen, within the kind.
Whatever that pesky "kind" is. Most of us here will sign up immediately if "kind" encompasses "life on Earth." That's called evolution.

This message is a reply to:
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