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Author Topic:   The First Questions In The Bible
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 10 of 161 (410215)
07-13-2007 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
07-13-2007 5:49 PM


Re: The message of the parable
Before they ate from the Tree of Knowledge the relationship was about the same relationship one might have with a squid or a slug. Adam and Eve were just another animal.
1.) The squid or the slug were not mentioned as the last beings
created.
2.) Only when man was created did God get so intimately involved
and hold a council that Man should be created in the image of God.
3.) God did not commit to the slug or the squid to have dominion over
all the other animals.
4.) God did not see what the slug or squid would name all the other
animals.
5.) God did not rest after creating the slug or squid, signifying that
He had obtained something of a completion of His work.
6.) God did not speak any specific instructions to the squid or slug
as He did to man.
7.) God did not tranfer the squid or slug into the garden of Eden.
At least no specific mention informs us that the garden of Eden
was prepared for the slug.
8.) God did not come looking for the squid or slug with a gentle "Where are you?" after things went wrong.
10.) There is nothing suggesting that the tree of life was put into the garden for the slug or squid.
11.) If you personally feel that your relationship with God is no better than that of a slug or a sguid you seemed to have missed most of the point of the Bible somehow.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 07-13-2007 5:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 07-13-2007 7:53 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 12 of 161 (410310)
07-14-2007 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
07-13-2007 7:53 PM


Re: The message of the parable
Do you have a point?
I made my point jar. The point I made was that the created man's relationship with God was not of just the same as that between God and slugs and squids. That goes for before and after the taking in of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
You can't even keep the stories straight. The story about man created in God's image is not even part of the story of the Garden of Eden.
That is your opinion, that it is not the same story. And I don't agree with your erroneous opinion here. If you want to say that there are two accounts in Genesis of man's beginning, I will gladly go along with that.
A skillful author can join two accounts together to emphasize different aspects of the same "story" - Man's creation and beginning.
The author of Genesis has joined the two accounts together to make one story. Genesis chapter 2 verses 1 through 4 are really the strong link that connects the two accounts into one story. They are coupled together by Moses.
Verse 22 of chapter 3 also seems to link the accounts together.
Compare: In the first account you have this: "And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ..." (Gen. 1:26).
And at the end of the second account you have this: "And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man, has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil ..." (Gen.3:22)
The mention of the divine "Us" in both accounts proves that in the mind of the author they should be combined together as one story.
Sure Adam and Eve were just animals, just as a sheep dog is sent out to tend the flock.
I don't see it that way at all jar. Now man has a CONNECTION to all the other creatures created. That is certain. So in one sense he is among them.
Yet Adam gives names to all the creatures. This is not insignificant. This is actually very profound. Adam assigned real meaning and interpretation to all the animals which he named.
So among the other creatures both accounts of the one story of man's beginnings show him to be at the pinnacle of created beings.
Now why do you want to undermine that obvious truth? What possible advantage to your understanding could you obtain by saying Adam and Eve were no more significant than the crab grass, the toad, the finch, or the squid or slug?
If you want to keep a sense of humility about being a human being I think you can do that without going overboard and making nonsense from Bible interpretation.
And folk certainly always look for Lassie when she gets lost.
Not only both accounts of man's beginnings show man as occupying a unique position above all the creatures, but Jesus Christ confirms this.
"Look at the birds of heaven. They do not sow nor reap nor gather into barns, yet your heavenly Father nourishes them. Are you not of more value than they?" (Matt. 6:26)
Did you catch that? Man is of more value than the birds.
No, He didn't say the birds were unimportant. He didn't say the birds don't matter. He DID say that man was of more value than the birds.
"And if God so arrays the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is cast into the furnace, will He not much more cloth you, you of little faith?" (Matt. 6:30)
Man is of more value than the grass too. Genesis should have shown you that. But if you missed it, listen to Jesus on the subject.
Elsewhere Christ teaches that man means more to God than the lovely lilies or the sparrows sold in the market place. So, yes, man is among the creatures. He has a connection to the animals. But at the same time he has a unique position above all the other animals.
And you should ascertain that even by looking to see that no creature on the planet seems to compare with humans.

And what my relationship happens to be is totally irrelevant to the story.
It all has to do with you and I, jar.
Are you ever going to post something that has any relevance or importance?
Now that's interesting. I had a similar instance of curiosity about your posts.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 07-13-2007 7:53 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 07-14-2007 10:46 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 18 of 161 (410408)
07-14-2007 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
07-14-2007 10:46 AM


Re: Just fiction
Uh, again jaywill, what does any of that have to do with the topic?
What does your comment about the squid and the slug have to do with the topic? My "off topic" reply to your "off topic" reply is no more off topic then what prompted me to correct your erroneous interpretation.
For one your other assertion that I can't get the stories straight and that there are two of them was shown as bogus as your comment about man's merely animal relationship with God.
You love to bring in irrelevant, unimportant and frankly false material, but what does any of that nonsense have to do with the thread?
If you can't prove what I wrote which was "false" then you're just full of hot air.
So quote me on what was false.
The topic is "the first question in the Bible" and "In other words, was the entire scenario meant to happen?"
So your comment about man having a relationship with God no better than squid or slug has nothing to do with the question.
Practice what you preach.
Well, since the various authors of the myths,
Since that what we are reading in Genesis many take as history and not myth, that is your assertion.
I could just as easily say "Since the various authors were Chinese ....".
wrote them that way, then yes, questioning was part of the storyline. But we need to remember that we are analyzing fiction.
We need to remember that that is your big fat skeptical opinion.
Or to put it another way, that is your unbelief in a book written to be believed as something that actually happened.
One thing you have been successful in demonstrating. That is the sheer stupidity with which a person falls into when questioning the word of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 07-14-2007 10:46 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 07-15-2007 12:06 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 161 of 161 (439891)
12-10-2007 7:24 PM


Questioning God's heart towards man
Yes. The first question in the Bible was the question of did God say something.
"Did God really say, You shall not eat of any tree of the garden?" (Gen. 3:1)
The first question was a question about the speaking of God. Did God REALLY say .... ? This was asked by one who was "more subtle, or crafty" ... "Now the serpent was more crafty ..."
When you think of human sorrow you may trace it back to this first questioning of God's words. When you think of wars, death, disease, rapes, broken families, addictions, bad leaders, religious hypocrisy, persecutions, racisms, thefts, lies, tears, agony, loneliness, dispair of all kinds, conflicts between nations, conflicts within families, and all that plagues the human race, you can trace it all back to this initial questioning of God's word.
The implication of the question:
Does God really have the authority?
Does God really love us?
Does God really care about our welfare?
Is God concealing something good from us?
Is God out to hem us in, box us up, limit us, jail us, enslave us?
All these suspicions were unleashed in the human hearts from the initial questioning of God's word and God's will.
"Did God really say, You shall not eat of any tree of the garden? ... You shall not surely die! For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will become like God, knowing good and evil." (See Gen. 3:1-5)
No, God knows that you will surely die. He knows all about life. God is the Divine uncreated and eternal life - self existing and infinite.
And He really said not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for we would surely die.

  
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