Jesus; the Torah, Nevi'im, and Psalms (Part 2)

In other words, you don't know the purpose of prophecy.From what I have discovered, prophecy isn't for the unbeliever; at least before Christianity anyway.A prophet is a person who makes God’s will clear, and spoke to the people concerning God's purposes/requirements, seeking to recall them to obedience when they strayed.I finally read that "Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew" and all I can see is a Christian claiming that the Jews don't undestand their own writings.What do Christians consider a prophet to be?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

well, because then anything can mean whatever you want.this is sort of another example of that pre-hoc propter-hoc fallacy. you're transposing a later meaning onto an earlier text, where it just was never there to begin with. that's not prophesy, that's allusion to a theme. prophesy would be one text clearly predicting something that happened after it's publication. well, that's not why it's a problem, actually. the problem is that if we know the nt authors just misread thematic elements, and alluded to texts that don't agree with them -- how accurate is the nt?now, in this micah verse, we have several nt authors going out of their way to "fulfill." they have jesus OF NAZARETH being born in another city -- bethlehem. so was he born in bethlehem, or nazareth? if the prophesy is not referring to jesus at all, or the city of bethlehem, well, it's starting to look like the nt authors just made up some stuff. which is a BIG problem.

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אָרַח

no, not exactly. you said:

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Now, if prophecy is supposed to be given so that unbelievers will be converted by the amazing fulfillments they see, then, yes, this is a problem.

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to which ramoss writes:

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Except of course, when you read the passage in context, the 'prophecy' as quoted by those hundreds of years later is not there to be found.

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What good is a dual prophecy is you have to take things out of context, and it can't be known to be a sign until hundreds of years after it happens?

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it's like claiming aragorn in lotr is really the second coming of jesus. it's great, and sure the theme is there... but one really has very little to do with the other.what ramoss wants to know, and it's a very valid question, is what the heck is the purpose of prophesy, if it can't be interpretted at the time it's given? or even at the time of the supposed fulfillment? forced-fits aren't really god's style, i think. it should take a write a hundred years later to say "oh, i guess this and this share some thematic elements. maybe if i take it way out of context, one is really prophesying the other." prophesies are usually straightforward, and to the point, and don't require mystics, interpretation, or for the reader to ignore the rest of the book.i mean, heck, if we wanna take things flagrantly out of context, the bible says "there is no god" at least a dozen time...

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אָרַח

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well, that's not why it's a problem, actually. the problem is that if we know the nt authors just misread thematic elements, and alluded to texts that don't agree with them -- how accurate is the nt?

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In his letters, I don't see that Paul really claimed that Jesus fulfilled any prophecy. He did however pull quotes from the OT and various writings to lend authority to what he was saying.This is no different than what we do today. Such as if I quote what the elf said in "The Santa Clause." (seeing isn't believing, believing is seeing) In context, that sentence has nothing to do with religion, but the sentence served my purpose and I gave credit where credit was due. They weren't my own words. That doesn't mean the movie or author supported my use of the statement.Now the author of Mark also does not seem to claim that Jesus fulfilled any OT prophecy. The one verse 15:28 is considered to be added later and is left out of the Bibles I've seen. This author also uses quotes in the same manner that Paul did. But did he really claim any fulfillment of prophecy?The author of Matthew is the one who seems to have gone overboard with the out of context fulfillments. I've seen suggestions that the book of Matthew was actually written as a satire. If the book was truly written as a satire, then the author knew exactly what he was doing and didn't intend to use the verses in context.IMO, these NT authors didn't misread anything.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

no no, i mean matthew. i dunno about that one. but good points about everything else.

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אָרַח

Satire According to MatthewI think the author of Matthew knew exactly what he was writing.IMO the author of Luke tried to clean out the satire.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

interesting. not sure i agree with the first bit of the genealogy argument, but the second half has a very good point...

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It is generally conceded that Matthew addressed his gospel to a Jewish audience. The Jews, being familiar with the Old Testament scriptures, would have recognized Matthew's phony fulfillments as signals that the book should not be taken seriously.

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yeah, that could explain it.

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So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: "He will be called a Nazarene." (Matthew 2:23)

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Which prophets? Although Matthew uses the plural, no such prophecy has ever been located. This is another clear mark of satire.

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maybe he's playing on "nazarite," which jesus is clearly not one of. he didn't shave his head, avoid dead people, and stay away from wine -- in fact he did the opposite.

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אָרַח

So when you think about it, the Christian Tradition followed the example of the author of Matthew when it came to picking out prophecy fulfillment and establishing their Rules of Prophecy and they bend over backwards to defend them.They seem to have lost the true purpose of the ancient prophecies.In the Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew Justin Martyr tells Trypho that he (Trypho) has been persuaded by teachers who do not understand the Scriptures.IMO, the opposite is true. Christianity doesn't seem to understand its own scriptures, let alone the Hebrew ones.Paul said Even Paul's description of prophecy seems to present prophecy as something for the listening audience, not the extreme future.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Prophecy simply means: preaching. Heck, even Peter's mother-in-law "prophesied!" Don't we all?I think all preachers like to make predictions. "Mark my word." They say. "It shall come to pass." But no one really knows the future.Official prediction is sometimes called prognostication. In the Bible: the office of Prognosticator is characterized as a useless profession. Why? Because ... No one knows the future. Not even our beloved Isaiah: Isaiah Was a False Prophet

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

i think this is a later christian thing.in the ot, a prophet seems to have held a set position in society. there's some evidence that what we refer to as a prophet (isaiah and his ilk) are not what they considered prophets.when amos is up prophesying at bethel in israel, the head priest amaziah says to him:

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Amos 7:12-14

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"Seer, off with you to the land of Judah! earn your living there, and do your prophesying there! But don't ever prophesy again at Bethel; for it is a king's sanctuary and a royal palace."

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amos, a prophet, answers with:

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"I am not a prophet, and I am not a prophet's disciple..."

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funny response. the implication of amaziah's charge is that amos is making money off his prophesy. the parallelism even in the prose puts "earn money" with "prophesy."this bit's from when saul and his servent need a question answered:

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1Sa 9:9 (Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.)

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it seems to have originally been a profession, like an astrologer minus the astrology. they wer paid for it. and at some point, this changed, probably in regards to people who offered prophesy without charge, like amos.

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אָרַח

i think we've seen quite a lot of that here...

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אָרַח

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I think all preachers like to make predictions.

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I think many people do, although not publicly or dealing with religion.I know there is a good word for what I am thinking of besides prediction, but every so often I have a "short circuit" and can't get a grip on the word I want. So let me know if you can figure it out.By watching what is happening around them some people notice trends or the way a situation is heading.Example:When my daughter was in HS she twirled a flag in the marching band. The new band director, a former preacher, thought the kids should give their all to the band even if school work fell behind. He had so many practices that the kids didn't have time for school work (even the smart ones). He also had a bad habit of putting male chaperones on an all girl bus. The bad part was the chaperone always sat in the back of the bus.I wrote to the band admin group and basicly told them that this was a disaster waiting to happen. I told them if they didn't change this situation, the school would end up in the papers and not in a good way.They ignored me and the school principal ignored me. The band was winning and that was all that mattered. Needless to say I pulled my daughter out of marching band because it didn't help her school work.That second year the school ended up in the newspapers and not in a good way. They fired the director and there were many student and parental complaints concerning the conditions.Isn't that really what the Prophets were doing? They looked at the bigger picture and could see problems down the road. Unfortunately they were weak in the solution part. Their solution was always to turn back to God and all will be well.Isn't there a good name for those who try to foresee problems and not just wait to put out fires?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Thanks for the references.This is a subject I have yet to fully explore but I have learned some very interesting things.Some prophets were executioners.

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"I hewed [them] by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth:" Hosea 6:5

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If you think this is simply a metaphor indicating harsh words, consider the 450 men Elijah butchered after the Fire Power demonstration at Mt. Carmel.

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"Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there." 1Kings 18:40

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It was a prophet (Samuel) who appointed the first king of Israel. We know that the people of Israel did not live in a vacuum of international dominion, so, by whose authority did Sam make Saul a king?Elijah, most famous of all the prophets, appears to be working for an empire (probably Assyria) by whom he is authorized to appoint kings for both: Israel and her traditional enemy - Syria. The instructions which Elijah receives from his 'boss' are very interesting. It sounds like his most important concern is that the people in these lands be loyal to him. He apparently doesn't give a rip if the rest of them wipe each other out.

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"And the LORD said unto him, Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when thou comest, anoint Hazael [to be] king over Syria: And Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint [to be] king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abelmeholah shalt thou anoint [to be] prophet in thy room. And it shall come to pass, [that] him that escapeth the sword of Hazael shall Jehu slay: and him that escapeth from the sword of Jehu shall Elisha slay. Yet I have left [me] seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him." 1Kings 19:15-18 KJV

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The king of Syria then proceeds to make war on Israel and does so quite successfully for many years thereafter.Let the reader understand that Baal's represented the political influence of the Phonecian ('Philistine,' AKA Palestinian) empire in the land of Canaan. There were at least three empires vying for control of that real estate: Egypt, Assyria, and Phonecia.Prophets were considered to be dangerous men. If it were not so, then why would people try to kill them and why would Jehovah tell people to do them no harm?

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"Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm." Psalm 105:15

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They were at one time, apparently, a sort of newscorp. They had a "school," held conferences, and were known for hanging out in the nude (1 Samuel 19:24).Bad prophecy apparently became a serious problem, and it was predicted that there would come a time when it would be dangerous to admit that you were a prophet (Zechariah 13:5; Cf. Amos 7:14).That's all I've got for now.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

Great story, and good point. Experience enhances one's ability to predict the outcome. 'futurist'?'analyst'?'fortune teller'?

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

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'futurist'?

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That's the one I was looking for. I've heard it used in the workplace.Unfortunately, even companies don't like to change for the sake of a possible future problem unless they absolutely have to or until the problem actually arises.Some things never change I guess.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France